P5 NA Build - Target 175whp

Okay... so the new idle hunting at cold is simply because of the cams, huh? The idle actually went up to 900 rpms by itself, now it's back down... guess it's the stock computer's doing. Yeah, it's starting to dip to 500.

I'll try your suggestion of extra advance and see if that helps. We've added some extra fuel, but that actually seemed to exacerbate the problem... maybe I'll dial it back to 13-14 (seems around 10-12 now... the way my needle actually visibly drops as I'm at idle seems to suggest this... :D ) and add that timing and see what we get.

As for removing overlap... the Integral packaging says not to use cam-gears with them... should I listen to this or go ahead and re-install the gears?

If the integrals are ANYWHERE near as agressive as the twiggy cams, bypass air control screw wont be enough - you'll have to crack the throttle open - you can do this with a suitably sized socket (10mm i believe, could be wrong) and an allen key. You'll then need to recalibrate your throttle position sensor to reset the new "zero" position (not sure how you do this on your set up, on the microtech its a setting called TPSCAL).

Extra fuel will drop the idle a bit - but it'll also make it smoother - compensate with the throttle opening, and with timing....lean idle's are inherently rough...a rich idle, just like a rich fuel mix under power, makes the engine seem a little "doughy" which isn't desirable for driving, but is EXACTLY what you want for idling.

as for not use cam gears? why the hell not? there is absolutely completely NO WAY that they could have got the overlap dead right for every single application. Every person builds their engine differently, for different purposes, with varying levels of craziness. The only issue i could see is with massive alterations to the cam timing, coupled with the big lift - you could get a bit of piston contacting valve, but even thats highly unlikely (and easy to test, by spinning the crank around with a wrench a few times with the spark plugs out). Ring them up or email them and ask them just why the hell they think that you shouldn't be mucking with the cam advance and/or overlap. Check to see if doing so would cause a warrenty issue with them...

if they say that it will, ask for an explaination as to why it should - and ask them how they determined that whatever their overlap is set to is ideal for every possible combination of head work, manifolds, compression, and engine tune.
 
I as well will try to add a little timing, as well as back out the bypass air controll screw even furthur.... then ill start adding fuel until she calms down.

I took the car for a quick trip around the block yesterday and I seem to be running slightly rich. If i can get the idle stabilized ill start work on a rough road tune.
 
having aggressive cams will hurt your idle. aggressive cams are for high rpms were most airflow is important.

at idle the exhaust and intake cams are overlaping, so the car would not be able to hold vacuum pressure as well as it did. in order to have a more stable idle with aggressive cams is letting the idle go higher and have the air fuel ratios between 12 to 14 instead of 14 to15. the car needs to run a little rich so it wont stall out.
 
and how is that going to affect your daily gas mileage? is it better now that the car runs more efficient? just wondering because the gas prices are really starting to hit me now...
 
personally, i think it will burn more gas because alot more air is comming in and that has to be made up for the extra gas.

your building a race car, so i guess everybody has to make some sacrafises.
 
How much fuel that you use will depend on how you drive the car. If you baby it around, then you should stay on your cruise maps (AFRs of around 14) which have seen around 440 miles to the tank on long highway cruises. If you put the boot in regularly, you will get on the power maps (AFRs around 12) and tend to use a fair bit more fuel and might only get 310 miles to a tank.
 
wow... i get around 320 with cruising speed cause i work out of town... maybe getting better AFRs will get me better gas mileage...

this thread gets more and more interesting everytime i look in it... cant wait for the dyno :3
 
After market ECU will *generally* save you fuel, because you can dial in leaner fuel maps for cruise and partial throttle.... if you are on WOT the whole time, it'll drain the tank quicker than you can blink....its all in the tune, and the way you drive...
 
Well, with the extra overlap, and the richness to compensate, my car drinks gas like an SUV at idle. But I'm going to do some tuning tomorrow and try to make it a little less rich. Will try to see how we can adjust the TPS. As you can imagine, things are a bit different with the piggyback over a fully-programmable, but we're getting to the point that we're gaining more and more control over the car, with an average gain of 15 hp in the areas where the fuel maps are weak, and gains of 10 hp at the power peaks (5000 rpm for pre-VICS, 6000 rpm for post-VICS), I'm relatively happy with the piggyback... and we've got new tricks from the Dastek update... which includes tricks for rpm-delimiting, launch control and O2-bypassing.

Otherwise, it seems to run a little more efficient at low rpms.

How aggressive are the Twiggies? The IS2s have about 9.5mm of lift and 265 degrees duration (if I remember right). Finally got my dynos, am working on posting a build and dyno thread right now.
 
How aggressive are the Twiggies? The IS2s have about 9.5mm of lift and 265 degrees duration (if I remember right). Finally got my dynos, am working on posting a build and dyno thread right now.

Don't have the cam specs with me.... but its not just the high lift, and high duration (i think the integrals have a slightly more agressive intake cam), its the ramp rate....the twiggy cams hit and hold some 60 - 80% of their lift very very early in the rotation because of the rediculous ramp rates. They also run a pretty crazy overlap.

The guys that built them said they are what they would consider "mildy agressive" street cams (which is saying something when you see some of the V8 cams they have built), and "pure race" cams from a turbo perspective.... so they are not too shabby :P
 
We found on my build that the throttle cable was sticking some.
After that was addressed, the IAS was able to have some impact on idle.
It hisses now from the screw and still keeps an AWESOME 4 cyl burble.
She is cranky when cold, ofc
 
went to take the P5 out for a short drive this morning at it was running very lean. The only difference in conditions was the air temp (60F compared to 80F) I didnt have the laptop with me so i didnt have a chance to try and adjust anything. Also I did disconect the power to the MT since I had it running last. Any ideas what might cause this? should I just bump up the air temp map at 60F?
 
You referencing the stock MAF? Maybe it's just reading less air than there is? I guess bumping the map would be a good idea, how lean is lean?
 
You referencing the stock MAF? Maybe it's just reading less air than there is? I guess bumping the map would be a good idea, how lean is lean?

microtech doesn't use the MAF dude.....you can actually completely remove the thing from the car....

jimmy: air temp adjustments - but i'd get you "baseline" done first, then adjust the air temp fuel trim accordingly.....if you try and get air temp, whilst tuning everything else, you're going to chase your tail trying to get it right.
 
My bad. :p

Been thinking of converting to MAP myself to get rid of the stock MAF, but doing a sample and simulation on the Unichip to fool the stock ECU is a daunting task.

Yes, I envy you standalone boys.
 
My bad. :p

Been thinking of converting to MAP myself to get rid of the stock MAF, but doing a sample and simulation on the Unichip to fool the stock ECU is a daunting task.

Yes, I envy you standalone boys.

It took me half an hour just to get drivable up to 40kph when I tried removing the MAF and just using TPS with the emanage ultimate. Doable, but very tedious.
 

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