P5 Ecu Tweaks

[Woody]

OK. I'm at home now. A couple more questions:

1) What is WOT? (Wide open Throttle?) If so in cycle land we say WFO (Way the Fxxx Open).

2) OK so we got 3or 4 deives/options:

Apexi S-AFC, The Unichip, the Jet performance thing (ECU re-programing), and that Superchip thing (which I just glanced at.

What are the costs for these options?

I guess I'd like to see another 20 to 40 hp, but I can't see myself spending $2,000. I mean maybe a $1,000 is doable. My AEM Short ram should give me 3 to 5 hp ($200). If I do the cams ($300 plus labor of about $400 - total $700) that should give me 10 to 15 hp.

How do these options compare against the bang for buck with the ECU upgrades?

- Woody

 

[Woody]

After a little more research, I can toss out a couple more bits of info, and another question or 2.

First, on the Unichip - in the June "Sport Compact Car" mag there was a tweak of the WRX. There was a package by Vishnu Stage Zero kit, that included the Unichip, and a couple other gadgets, Ayway the bost in performance was real impressive - hp went from 167 hp to 208 hp, and torque from 167 to 200 ft lbs. GEEZ!!! But I think the package was pretty expensive (damned if I can find the price now) but I thought somewhere I saw like between $1,200 to $2,000 ???

The Apexi S-AFC seems pretty reasonable price-wise - around $350. But from what StuttersC says it would all be high-end impact. That is, from 4,000 rpm and up - right? But nobody has tried it on a late mode Protege engine - right?

I'll try to read some more, but I'm curious about how the Apexi S-AFC is programmed. I has like eight pre-sets? I'm just wondering how much trial and error (and dyno time) it takes to program/optimize performance with the Apexi S-AFC ? Maybe its easier than what I'm thinking it is, but is it a number of pre-sets that you choose from, and it tells you which oneis are optimial? Or do you just try some differnt settings, and dyno after each one to arrive at what is optimal (if there is a lot of dyno time involved, it can get pricey). It appears it is usually mounted on the dash, I assume this is to make it easier to set the programming - right? I assume it give you some kind of display - a graph or digital read out that tells you if you are hitting optimal?

Does Apexi have a web site? I expect that they would have more info there, maybe dyno numbers?

- Woody

 

[spoolinmp3(2)]

Maybe I am not understanding you woody, but are you going turbo? Because you mentioned the vishnu unichip upgrade for the suby's. They get lots of horsepower because they are turbo. Dont even think about getting those kinda increases from a chip on a N/A PROTEGE motor. All turbo cars i.e VW, AUDI and Suby to name a few benefit greatly from chips because the chip has control over one very important parameter that our cars dont have and thats BOOST!! Thats why they see big hp gains. Dont expect to see more than a 3-10hp gain with a chip, afc or any device unless you go turbo.

 

[70]

Maybe I am not understanding you woody, but are you going turbo? Because you mentioned the vishnu unichip upgrade for the suby's. They get lots of horsepower because they are turbo. Dont even think about getting those kinda increases from a chip on a N/A PROTEGE motor. All turbo cars i.e VW, AUDI and Suby to name a few benefit greatly from chips because the chip has control over one very important parameter that our cars dont have and thats BOOST!! Thats why they see big hp gains. Dont expect to see more than a 3-10hp gain with a chip, afc or any device unless you go turbo.

Sppolin' is right Woody. You won't see more than 10 from any of the options thrown out for chips/piggy back systems.

So, it's an expensive option for the horsepower you will gain. However, by smoothing out the timing changes and leaning out the fuel mixture there might be some other benefits that aren't power related. Such as better fuel economy.

 

[Woody]

Guys,

First off, no, I'm not thinking about adding a turbo at this point. It sounds like Big_Ben is doing one to the tune of $2,200 or so ? That's too much money for me right now, although I have nothing against turbos - and the gains would be awesome. The article-tweak I mention was a WRX with stock turbo. The Vishnu kit added some additional gadgets including the Unichip. Thanks Spoolin3(2) for pointing this out.

I did some searches on the Apexi S-AFC and the best numbers I could find are at:

http://www.importtuner.com/archives/tech/1201_tech02.shtml

Which again is a Turbo WRX. Anyway, it looks like they only pick up about 3 hp from installing and tweaking with the Apexi S-AFC.

Does anybod know if Apexi has a web siste?

Anyway, from what Spoolin & StuttersC is saying sounds about right, as far as bumps to the ECU. I compare this to simple perforamnce chips that I've used and typicially you get 3 to 8 hp more from one of these. Plus sometimes some nice tweaks like over-ride of the rev limited.

OK GUYS BOTTOM LINE:

I was figuring the cheapest & most sure way to pick up 20+ more HP was:
1) Short Ram Intake (AEM) (gain about 3 to 5 hp)
2) Install of Intake and Exhuast cams (gain 12 to maybe 15 hp).

Right there I've spent a little under a grand (I will have someone else intstall the cams). Are these two options the cheapest, most reliable way to gain 20+ hp, without spending more than $2,000 (turbo) on my P5 ?

Thanks!

- Woody

 

[70]

That stuff and opening up the exhaust should get you right in there.

 

[APEXistud]

Guys,
Does anybod know if Apexi has a web siste?

If you need to know anything about APEXi, it'd be best to direct the question towards me. APEXi-USA or APEXi of Japan. It looks to me that APEXi of Japan is in the process of reformating their website, so you might find it a little tricky navagating aroung it. I also have a sleugh of APEXi pics. Turbo's, Carbon Fiber velocity stacks for the turbo's, etc.

One thing I thought I should point out is that the S-AFC operates at a certain voltage constanly, I believe it's 5 volts. Since the S-AFC needs to stay at that voltage, if the sensor that it is plugged into like the MAF sensor for example, operates at a higher voltage the S-AFC won't control the readings it's giving to the ECU. Anyhow, some cars MAF sensors operate at a higher voltage at WOT, why I couldn't tell you. But, when that happens, the S-AFC can't control it and the ECU takes over. This information was brought to my attention by a couple of the APEXi technician when I called a few months back. I asked them about the MP3 possibly not being compatable with the S-AFC and that was the explanation I was giving. I could be entirely false, but I like to think the the Technicians at APEX-I know what they're talking about. Hope that helped a bit

 

[70]

That is something that i heard over on the other Protege site. You writing it here made me remember.

I think the Protege MAF runs at 5 volts for normal operation, and when you hit WOT it goes higher. Supposedly. Maybe...I don't know, I've never tested it.

 

[spoolinmp3]

Whats the big deal about Apexi? It think it sucks!!

Lol........Just kidding, I was trying to tease a certain someone
Apexi makes beautiful and innovative electronics. I am a big HKS fan myself but madprops to Apexi. I just upgraded to a 3inch exhaust and was going to buy an Apexi N-1, but I bought the HKS, thats where my loyalties stay....eventhough they look exactly the same....hmmm they are probably made in the same factory

That is something that i heard over on the other Protege site. You writing it here made me remember.

I remember reading this somewhere too. Regardless I am pretty sure that the S-AFC does not work on our cars, aleast not at WOT.

 

[Woody]

ApexiStud,

So it sounds like from your contacts and research that you are pretty condfident that the Apexi S-AFC will NOT work on the Protege MP3 or Protege5 right?

If that's the case I think I am right back where I started, altough I learned some things on the way. And that is I plan to:

1) Dyno my stock P5 on Tuesday as a base-line
2) Install my AEM Shrot Ram - see what that does - re-dyno, and if I need more
3) Do the J-spec cams.

I guess one last thought, from the protegeclub.com forum, there is a rumour that AEM maybe working on a performance chip for the 2.0L Protege engine. Does anyone know anything more about this? If so, I may wait and do the (curretnly vapor-ware) AEM chip after the AEM Short Ram, and do the cams last. On Monday, I may call AEM myself to see wht they say about a potential performance chip in development.

- Woody

 

[Antoine]

Well this is one hell of a thread you started Woody! The thread is so packed with info, you can't even cut it with a knife!

I would like to make a few points here:

1. Please keep an open mind and do your research everyone...lets keep our facts straight...don't take any doubt as a personal attack...we are all here to share, learn and grow.

2. Protegeclub who?........exactly......moving on

3. Woody, you make an excellent point:

Maybe you guys all know each othter and this is all in fun, but I sure did not want to start a fight. Could we turn down the attitude a bit? I just left another Protege forum in the last week because people were pissing on each other. "You're a dumb s***, bite me, blah, blah blah..." "If you lived in Connecticut I'd beat the crap out of you, blah, blah, blah". I don't have patience for that immaturity, even if the sender does know a couple things that I don't. This forum has been very good so far, I just don't want to repeat a very bad experience. Thanks so much.

PLEASE...keep this in mind everyone...everybody is so cool...lets keep it that way...thanks

 

[Woody]

Antoine,

I guess no harm was done, but for a new guy jumping in, I did not know that. I felt things could go over the top.

I have participated in several Sport Bike forums over the years, and a RX7 forum as well. I've never gotten the hurtful, viscious abuse, in one week at the Yahoo forum, in all the other forums combined over the years. I'm no boy-scout, and I've been around the block a few times. But if I posted the personal insults, and threats that I got in that forum, I'm sure it would make you drop your jaw open, and say to yourself, "What the F?" I went thru this just in the last week, and I was afraid it could happen over again on this forum. I left that forum responding to this (obviously immature bully) that as a matter of fact, I DO have feelings, and they can be hurt. (He probably never heard that one before!) I also commented that forums like the Yahoo one, were intended to share knowledge, and HELP people. At some point in time these kind of brats will come to understand that people were not put on this earth for their amusement, and if not they will probably end up incarcarated or dead. I then called on the senior forum members to take care of business, but as for me, I respected myself too much to stick around.

Geez! Sorry to rant. But this experience, even though it was an on-line experience, still bothers me, and makes me angry. Give me another couple days and I'll be fine.

Anyway, I appreciate your comments. This stuff is importatnt to maintain a healthy forum. And so far, this one seems quite good.

Thanks again,

- Woody

 

[70]

(snip) 2. Protegeclub who?........exactly......moving on
(snip)

I haven't ever really had a problem over there, and there are some pretty knowledgable people.

That's where I got a lot of the info that I posted in this thread.

There is also a lot of new info that I found rather interesting which explains some of the wierd fluctuations in the dyno's I've seen on third gen Proteges.

 

[chdesign]

Whats the big deal about Apexi? It think it sucks!!

Lol........Just kidding, I was trying to tease a certain someone
Apexi makes beautiful and innovative electronics. I am a big HKS fan myself but madprops to Apexi. I just upgraded to a 3inch exhaust and was going to buy an Apexi N-1, but I bought the HKS, thats where my loyalties stay....eventhough they look exactly the same....hmmm they are probably made in the same factory


I remember reading this somewhere too. Regardless I am pretty sure that the S-AFC does not work on our cars, aleast not at WOT.

Well the S-AFC may be good and Apexi is a good company I have the dunk turbo muffler on my car but My loyaty stands with Blitz!!!!! I'm going to dump my apexi muffler and go with a nurspec. As well as dump my HKS filter I believe and go with the blitz unit. Just something about Blitz makes me wanna.....well nevermind that. ROFL

 

[spoolinmp3]

I used to post over on that "other protege forum" Than I got personally attacked by members and even worse by the moderators. Anyways.....that forum can kiss my ass!! I said to a certain moderator psuedoX or whatever his stupid name is, that I would refuse posting there any longer because of his smart ass and untactful and extremely immature remarks. He must have no people skills, and has to resort by cutting people down over the internet.

Well I am proud to say that I NEVER and will NEVER post on that other site again. It is so refreshing to come on this site. Everyone is helpfull and extremely friendly

If somebody has something to contribute or ask a question on this forum everybody does it respectfully. I have come to love this place.........the moderators are great(thanks Antoine and Enry!) the members are awesome, and I am happy!

 

[Woody]

Soolin,

I agaree this is a pretty comfortable forum to be in - I like it.

CHDESIGN,

I've heard of the other companies, but not of Blitz. Does Blitz have a web site? Or where can I get more info on what they offer? I have an HKS cat-back on my 2nd gen RX7 TII, and liked it fine, but its nice to see what other companies offer.

Thanks guys,

- Woody

 

[APEXistud]

Blitz-NA I think Woody will appreciate this site. Although I do like the Blitz filter and I love the sound that Blitz filter adds to a turbod car. I think it would be only right to point out that although the Blitz filter yield the highest HP gains over pretty much every other filter on the market, it is probably because it does the least as far a filtering capablities goes. So if you live in a extremely dust climate, I'd advise you to think twice before you buy the Blitz SUS filter. The Blitz LM filter will be better.

As for the mufflers, I have never been a fan of the Dunk Muffler since it isn't exactly the best sounding muffler on the market. I have been considering trying to find a way to fit the HKS Hiper muffler or the APEXi WS muffler onto my car since both of those seem to give a nice sound.

Now for the chipping the ECU. Like others have stated before, there is no chip for the 01-up Protege. There are biggy back computers though. I think for those of you who are really considering extracting some good hp from the motor, you're better off going stand alone. I too have heard of the AEM plan. But, it's not going to be a chip. I'm pretty sure that if someone did some research and built a custom ECU harness, they could use AEM's engine management. Actually, I know for a fact that AEM's computer will work. The hard part would be making the custom ECU harness. Just my .02 cents

 

[Woody]

APEXIStud,

Thanks! Yes, I jumped to conclusions there, and thought that AEM was working on pop-in chip. After looking over their product line, I realized that it would most lkely be a Engine Mangement System. It looks like ther EMC's run about $1,600 (Yips!).

If you are racing of course you want any advantage you can get regardless of the cost, but for me, $1,600 for like 10 hp (?) is not cost-effective. Or would an ECM (if and when it is produced) give more gain than that? I see that AEM des not post dyno number for their ECM's. (They do post dyno numbers for their air induction systems.)

- Woody

 

[70]

APEXIStud,

Thanks! Yes, I jumped to conclusions there, and thought that AEM was working on pop-in chip. After looking over their product line, I realized that it would most lkely be a Engine Mangement System. It looks like ther EMC's run about $1,600 (Yips!).

If you are racing of course you want any advantage you can get regardless of the cost, but for me, $1,600 for like 10 hp (?) is not cost-effective. Or would an ECM (if and when it is produced) give more gain than that? I see that AEM des not post dyno number for their ECM's. (They do post dyno numbers for their air induction systems.)

- Woody

Its hard to post numbers for the engine management system becuase it completely depends on what mods you have and how effectively you can tune it.

Numbers will vary wildly depending on who tunes it and what mods are present.