P5 Ecu Tweaks

[Woody]

Guys,

I qam new to this forum, but I have a new P5. From the research Ive already done (which is not a lot) it seems like the main (only) reason that the MP3 is getting 10 more hp than the Protege5, is the ECU.

Is there available, or is anyone working on a performance chip, or other tweak for the P5 to release that extra 10 ponies?

From what Ive heard no one has been successful yet, the P5 ECU seems to fight an up-grade. The only option I know of yet is to buy a MP3 ECU and swap (what about $1,500) or buy and after market ECU that is programmable (roughly the same cost).

Im hopping somebody will prove me wrong.

Thanks!

- Woody

 

[JcsMP3]

MP3 ecu advances the ignition timming by about 8 degrees hence we have 10 more Hp then you at the crank. Only if you use premium fuel otherwise there is a knock sensor that will set back the time to P5 performance.

Jc

 

[20ESGUY]

actually,thats not really the difference. The difference is the K&N airfilter and exhaust. Thats where the ten horse power comes from. The ecu maybe set a hair more radical than anyone else protege as far as the timing is conserned. I doubt very seriously that changing out your ecu will gain you any HP, unless you change to a stand-alone mangement system.

 

[Woody]

OK. I guess there is a difference of opion. I'm more inclined to agree with JC, but can I get more info:

JC - what do you base your reply on?

20ESGUY - what do you base your reply on?

Thanks for the replies guys!

- Woody

 

[PortCityMP3]

K & N filter??? Was I the only MP3 er not to get the K & N filter?? This is the first I've heard about that....

 

[chitownmp3]

None came with a k&n filter. The hp increase is mostly from the computer maps.
these are based on experience and facts from Racing Beat!
I'm not trying to flame just stating fact!
Tuning ecu /fuel/ingnition timing curves/injector cycles.... can net some good hp on most cars.

 

[melicha8]

Isn't it possible to get an MSD or equivalent ignition system to advance the timing?

 

[Woody]

One thing I can share - from another forum I found out some P5 guys tried the Jet Performance V-Force gadget that is supposed to re-map fuel injection, and do some other cute things. There reports back was that the V-Force was a waste of money and actually caused there P5 to run worse (very rough).

But keeep up the replies guys - this helps me.

Yup Racing Beat should know, they did the MP3.

- Woody

 

[20ESGUY]

To answer your question I'm basing my opinon on the fact that I worked for a mazda dealer when the mp3 came out. Tried to buy one actually, but couldn't afford the extra grand in price. Yes the mp3 was supposed to come with a k&n panel filter and racing beat exhaust. It was promo'd with that at least, and i know the one we had on our lot and the one that Capital mazda had on there's both had k&n's. As far as the ECU i was trying to remember what some other members had posted on here. That and I can't imagine that the mp3's fuel/igntion maps would be too far off from the ES and P5. After driving all of them there's not much difference. Without specifics though it's hard to say. I think J C mention that it was advanced 8 degrees, I don't think you're gonna get 10HP from an 8 degree advance. In the miata community we used to advance ours up 12-14 degrees and usually netted around 3-4 HP gains, mostly used it for quicker acceleration. Granted its a different motor in the miata, but it's a decent reference anyways since our motors are simialr to the 1.6/1.8 they use.

 

[sundevilMP5]

good point...i'm pretty doubtful that changing the ECU alone will give you 10 horsies...you will see a noticable gain but not quite that much...it's more or less a combination of the exhaust with the ecu...

i would just wait a while and do some more research to see if anybody is coming out with another performance ecu...because really for the price you pay for the mp3 ecu you'd be better off spending a little more when somebody else releases something better...

 

[70]

To answer your question I'm basing my opinon on the fact that I worked for a mazda dealer when the mp3 came out. Tried to buy one actually, but couldn't afford the extra grand in price. Yes the mp3 was supposed to come with a k&n panel filter and racing beat exhaust. It was promo'd with that at least, and i know the one we had on our lot and the one that Capital mazda had on there's both had k&n's. As far as the ECU i was trying to remember what some other members had posted on here. That and I can't imagine that the mp3's fuel/igntion maps would be too far off from the ES and P5. After driving all of them there's not much difference. Without specifics though it's hard to say. I think J C mention that it was advanced 8 degrees, I don't think you're gonna get 10HP from an 8 degree advance. In the miata community we used to advance ours up 12-14 degrees and usually netted around 3-4 HP gains, mostly used it for quicker acceleration. Granted its a different motor in the miata, but it's a decent reference anyways since our motors are simialr to the 1.6/1.8 they use.

No MP3's came with a K&N panel filter. Mine didn't. The exhaust is the stock Protege exhaust except for the muffler which is supposed to be a high flow unit from Racing Beat. The exhaust diameter on the MP3 is the same as the stock Protege all the way through.

The extra power comes from timing, and the ECU.

 

[trobbins]

Yes, StuttersC is correct. The MP3 Did not come with a K&N filter, I will take a picture of the filter in there if you want proof. Just because you "work" someplace doesn't necessarily mean you know everything about stuff at work. Believe me, it took me 45 minutes to prove to the dealer that the MP3 didn't have Cruise control.

You may be confused with the prototype MP3 that had a K&N filter in it. It also had painted calipers, different alloys and a bunch of other stuff. This was before Mazda toned it down a notch for price and stuff.

Tim

 

[big_ben]

You guys crack me up!

None of you are right.


THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MP3 AND NORMAL PROTEGE IS ADVANCED TIMING.

The Racing Beat is not a high flow muffler. The muffler was designed to only give a more agressive tone. There is no K&N panel filter! If you learned that at some class mazda sent you to, they were lying to you. If you would like to challenge my statement, please do, do some research, you will be very silent afterwards because you will discover that you were wrong. I'm sorry about being a little rude, but people keep spouting off this misinformation about the MP3.

 

[70]

Re: You guys crack me up!

None of you are right.


THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MP3 AND NORMAL PROTEGE IS ADVANCED TIMING.

The Racing Beat is not a high flow muffler. The muffler was designed to only give a more agressive tone. There is no K&N panel filter! If you learned that at some class mazda sent you to, they were lying to you. If you would like to challenge my statement, please do, do some research, you will be very silent afterwards because you will discover that you were wrong. I'm sorry about being a little rude, but people keep spouting off this misinformation about the MP3.

More aggressive tone and flow better on the muffler. That's from Racing Beat. The rest of the exhaust is basically stock Protege.

And the ECU was tweaked over the stock Protege/Protege 5, most likely to dump in more fuel to deal with the advanced timing.

I've done a ton of research trying to find sutff out about this car. I've spoken with Racing Beat a number of times about the car.

 

[big_ben]

Well where in the hell do you think the advanced timing comes from. Some little elves in there pushing the cams around faster? I really don't think I should have to state where the advanced timing comes from, I think people should know that it comes from the ECU. And the reason for the extra fuel dump isn't for more power. If you had really done your research on this subject you would know this. The reason for the extra fuel is to cool the cylinder temps. Advanced timing means that the air/fuel mixture ignites while the piston is still on it's up-stroke. The reason this gives more power is this, if it ignites before top dead center, the compression will increase rapidly and will push the piston down faster. This is basically detonation which is a bad thing. To keep the car reliable and to make the engine last, there has to be more fuel to cool it. Trust me, more fuel does not mean more power. There has to be a correct ratio of air and fuel or the car will run like s***.

School is out.

 

[Woody]

Actually I do appreciate hearing where advanced timing comes from. On Sport-bikes, which I know more about, Its mechanical, not computer.

StutterC or others - Is there a company that makes an after-market timing advancer for the P5 ? Or would I need to go to a programmable ECU (read $1,500+, way too much money for my budget.) For sport bikes the advance you see is normally 3% to 8%, but someone said the difference in advance for the MP3 is 12%? Wow!

- Woody

PS - Maybe you guys all know each othter and this is all in fun, but I sure did not want to start a fight. Could we turn down the attitude a bit? I just left another Protege forum in the last week because people were pissing on each other. "You're a dumb s***, bite me, blah, blah blah..." "If you lived in Connecticut I'd beat the crap out of you, blah, blah, blah". I don't have patience for that immaturity, even if the sender does know a couple things that I don't. This forum has been very good so far, I just don't want to repeat a very bad experience. Thanks so much. - bk

 

[trobbins]

So... basically you are telling me that by adding more fuel (which burns) it will cool the engine down. So next time I want to cool down my camp fire I should poor gas on it then right???

You are mistaken. The higher octane gas is what prevents the detonation not the extra fuel. It has a higher resistence to combustion under pressure.

Advanced cam timing means that the intake valve closes earlier in the cam cycle.

I believe the ECU controls advanced Ignition timing. Not cam timing. Cam timing is more of a mechanical thing not an electronic thing.

I do not really know how the ECU can control the Cam timing, if anyone wants to fill me in I will listen. It must have some sort of recieving device to change the digital signal to a mechanical one. (or maybe a little elve)

Since an electronic ignition is present it would be easy for the ECU to change.

Tim

 

[big_ben]

I am a little testy this morning. If I've offended anyone I'm sorry. I know exactly what protege site you are talking about. As for the fuel cooling cylinder temps, I'm sorry to inform you but yes, it does cool cylinder temps. Any type of atomized liquid will absorb heat. I know my physics and thermodynamics, I'm an engineering major. Do you want me to get into Carnot engine cycles involving compression and heat. That might explain it better if you have any physics books handy. As for the cam timing, yes, it is mechanical in our car, but the spark is ECU controled, and that is what is tweaked to give the MP3 it's 10 extra ponies.

 

[70]

Well where in the hell do you think the advanced timing comes from. Some little elves in there pushing the cams around faster? I really don't think I should have to state where the advanced timing comes from, I think people should know that it comes from the ECU. And the reason for the extra fuel dump isn't for more power. If you had really done your research on this subject you would know this. The reason for the extra fuel is to cool the cylinder temps. Advanced timing means that the air/fuel mixture ignites while the piston is still on it's up-stroke. The reason this gives more power is this, if it ignites before top dead center, the compression will increase rapidly and will push the piston down faster. This is basically detonation which is a bad thing. To keep the car reliable and to make the engine last, there has to be more fuel to cool it. Trust me, more fuel does not mean more power. There has to be a correct ratio of air and fuel or the car will run like s***.

School is out.

big_ben, in the post you said, "THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MP3 AND NORMAL PROTEGE IS ADVANCED TIMING."

Well, if that is the only difference, then the ECU would not be included in that would it. So hence elves wouldn't be to far off. Not all cars get the advanced timing from the ECU. Most cars that have distibutors gain the advanced timing mechanically, by physically moving things.

I know why extra fuel would be dumped in, to help prevent knock. The motor becomes more susceptible to knock as the timing is advanced more and more. Running more fuel and at a higher octane helps to prevent this.

And I don't know who is in school, but it's not me buddy. Stop taking this personally.

Woody - There is nothing that I know of that just advances the timing. Supposedly the Apexi S-AFC will work. There are a few other piggy back systems that are supposed to help. I believe there is another thread that talks about it.

 

[trobbins]

Yes, it it absorbs heat, but it also creates more heat when burned. I am a professional engineer, so do tell me what you go to school for. I know plenty of engineering students (and engineers for that matter) that are idoits (Not saying you are one, because you seem to know what you are talking about).

Anyway, if the ingintion timing is where the hp comes from, why are we talking about cam timing???

And please don't threaten to open a physics book, I still have nightmares about being back in school.

Take Care,

Tim