P0421 converter or O2 sensor?

Mustang Matt

Member
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2001 Mazda Protege MP3
Was driving home tonight and the check engine light popped on. I scanned it and got a P0421.

I found this site with a decent explanation:
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0421

However, I'm not that familiar with the exhaust system. Are there two catalytic converters? On ebay I'm seeing a small one for sale and a larger one attached to a pipe. If there are two, how do I know which one this code applies to? It says bank 1 so would that be the front one?

Thanks guys!
 
I did search and every thread has different info.

Some people were saying that it's caused due to misfires which are caused by a bad coil. I haven't noticed any misfires. Seems like the car is running fine. I'm at 147000 miles and I did change the plugs about 10,000 miles ago.

Other people said it was the pre-heater.

Some people were saying it was the rear O2 sensor going out.

I found a post by you specifically that states:
"Secondly, the code P0421 does not mean that your car is running rich - it means that your catalytic converter is bad. There's not really any other way to argue this, other than me pointing you to the page in the repair manual that directly states this."

Then your next post in that thread states if the cat went out something else IS wrong with the car.

So I guess if my car is having another issue I need to troubleshoot and fix that problem before replacing the cat or I'll ruin another one.

I guess I'll just start throwing money at the problem until it goes away.
 
I did search and every thread has different info.

Some people were saying that it's caused due to misfires which are caused by a bad coil. I haven't noticed any misfires. Seems like the car is running fine. I'm at 147000 miles and I did change the plugs about 10,000 miles ago.

Other people said it was the pre-heater.

Some people were saying it was the rear O2 sensor going out.

I found a post by you specifically that states:
"Secondly, the code P0421 does not mean that your car is running rich - it means that your catalytic converter is bad. There's not really any other way to argue this, other than me pointing you to the page in the repair manual that directly states this."

Then your next post in that thread states if the cat went out something else IS wrong with the car.

So I guess if my car is having another issue I need to troubleshoot and fix that problem before replacing the cat or I'll ruin another one.

I guess I'll just start throwing money at the problem until it goes away.

That's a defeatist mentality. It is true that 99 times out of 100 a P0421 code means that your front cat is bad. It also means that 99 times out of 100, something else caused it to go bad. Are your ignition coils and spark plug wires the original ones on your car? I would say that every 90,000 miles is a good interval to change these.

Also check the tightness of your O2 sensors. If the back one goes bad it will not trigger this code, but if the front one goes bad, it will. I would replace your front O2 sensor every 90,000 miles as well, since it does wear out over time (only replace your front one, the rear one doesn't need to be changed) and can hurt your gas mileage.

Finally, if all else fails, you must have an exhaust leak at one of the flanges of your cat. This is highly unlikely, since the thing has so many bolts holding it, and there are no curves or anything in the cat itself that would cause sealing issues.

To check your coils and spark plug wires, refer to the pages in the shop manual for measuring the resistances of these items with a voltmeter. For the O2 sensor, you can heat the sensor end with a propane torch and measure the output with a voltmeter. As soon as you remove the flame the voltmeter should fall back down to near 0. You can also have a shop do these things as well, but personally, if I were anywhere near 90,000 miles, I'd just replace the ignition coils, wires, spark plugs, and front O2 sensor and be done with it. All of these items can be had cheaply on RockAuto.com

As for the cat, either replace it with a used OEM cat, a new Walker cat from RockAuto.com, or a header. If you feel like going ultra cheap, just do the O2 sensor non-fouler trick that is described in detail on this forum.

I apologize for coming off as short earlier, but this is really not a difficult problem to diagnose if you read the applicable pages in the repair manual. Trust me ;)
 
Good info. I'll try to double check the coil and plug wires. They are both original. If they were having issues though, wouldn't I feel a miss during normal driving?

I don't have a repair manual to look up the procedures but I'll see if I can find one. Is it the official mazda repair manual you're referring to?
 
Good info. I'll try to double check the coil and plug wires. They are both original. If they were having issues though, wouldn't I feel a miss during normal driving?

I don't have a repair manual to look up the procedures but I'll see if I can find one. Is it the official mazda repair manual you're referring to?

Yes, look at the "stickies" on this forum. It's like the first or second one.
 
Hey slavrenz, One more question for you.

I've got a dashdaq data logger. Are there any meaningful PIDs I could data log to trouble shoot the other components as well?
 
To monitor the failure of your front cat, you could try looking at the signal from your front O2 sensor if it's available. It should be moving almost constantly, and should switch regularly back and forth over the 0.5v line. If not, then it needs to be replace. Also, if you've got an exhaust leak, you might see an overly lean condition, because of all the extra air getting in. Has your car been running weird at all? If not, I doubt it's a vacuum leak.

Also, if you have the voltage from your rear O2 sensor, monitor that as well, just to confirm the P0421 code. The rear O2 sensor should flip back and forth over the 0.5v line at no more than half as much as the front O2 sensor. Any more and the two sensors are seeing too similar of exhaust, which means that the cat isn't cleaning it in between.

As for the ignition, you could also try pulling one of your spark plug wires barely off of the ignition coil with the car running. If you see a strong spark going, that coil/wire is probably good. But honestly, like I said before, if you're close to 90,000 miles, I'd just replace everything.
 
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No it's been running completely normal. No exhaust leaks that I can hear. Idle and vacuum seem fine. I'll datalog the O2 voltages on the way to work tomorrow and report back.

I'm at 150,000 miles. Any recommendations on a source of coils and wires?

I wouldn't mind getting one of those headers off ebay that bypass the preheater but I'm a bit worried about fitment and quality and I don't want the car to sound much different.
 
Any header changes the sound on these cars but leaving the cat and back (with resonator) will not make it to bad IMO.
 
Well my wife was going out of town and I had her take the mazda to leave at the airport until Sunday so troubleshooting is delayed and meanwhile I'm cruising CTS-V style. :)
 
147,000 miles and you're still on original wires? Get rid of those as fast as you can, and new coils won't hurt either. Then move on from there. Even if that wasn't the problem, the car will run better for sure!
 
Alright if you guys have recommendations on where to get these parts shoot me a PM.

Thanks again for all the help!
 
Sorry for the delay guys. I cleared the code after it happened and it hasn't come back. Not sure if it's significant but the weather is much warmer and the snow is gone here.

Anyway, I data logged a bit today. Hopefully this is a meaningful presentation.

This first run is after about 2 minutes from a cold start in my driveway to about 7 minutes later when I'm going 70 on the highway. I think maybe it's too low of resolution for the amount of data I logged. As in the chart needs to be way wider because you're missing a lot of data points. (4000+ total)




The second was a while later for a couple minutes going 70 on the highway:


Anything stand out? Anything else I should log?
 
Sorry for the delay guys. I cleared the code after it happened and it hasn't come back. Not sure if it's significant but the weather is much warmer and the snow is gone here.

Anyway, I data logged a bit today. Hopefully this is a meaningful presentation.

This first run is after about 2 minutes from a cold start in my driveway to about 7 minutes later when I'm going 70 on the highway. I think maybe it's too low of resolution for the amount of data I logged. As in the chart needs to be way wider because you're missing a lot of data points. (4000+ total)





The second was a while later for a couple minutes going 70 on the highway:


Anything stand out? Anything else I should log?

I'm at work right now, so I won't be able to look more closely until tonight, but it seems as if you're getting awfully close to the limit of 2 front O2 sensor inversions for every 1 rear O2 sensor inversion. However, I think the approved method for checking this is to drive for 10-15 minutes on the highway to warm the cat up, and then park somewhere and measure the voltage readings at idle. This way, you don't introduce other variables such as acceleration and whatnot that might alter the readings.
 
Excellent info. It looks like a bosch 15730 is a direct replacement. I think I'll pick one up while I track down new coil packs and wires.
 
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