AequitasVeritas
Member
- :
- 2007 Mazdaspeed3
well, on my Hypertech, which I am running, I can go +/- 500rpm on the rev limit. As for CARB, it is removable if needed. I do not believe they have CARB exeption.
new tuning option?
- Thread starter Slideways
- Start date
AequitasVeritas
Member
- :
- 2007 Mazdaspeed3
well, seeing that i can only see the user interface, i cannot say whether or not that is true.
Lean is dangerous to the health of a turbocharged engine with direct fuel injection. Rich or fat or "dirty" is safe for us. Please explain what you or they mean by lean. This is not a normally aspirated application and it is not regular port fuel injection. AFR must be significantly lower than stoich under load or we go zoom, zoom, boom.
Last edited:
A talk to Veritas says the AFR on his Hypertech ( I presume you are running a MS3, right?) at WOT is in the 10.5:1 range which seems pretty conservative to me.
I picked up one of these programmers so I'll give ya'll my feedback...no dyno data obviously but I have a Scangauge and 40 years of turbodidling experience. Last rod I sent through a block was New Years Day, 1984 so I'm getting the knack of it finally.
I picked up one of these programmers so I'll give ya'll my feedback...no dyno data obviously but I have a Scangauge and 40 years of turbodidling experience. Last rod I sent through a block was New Years Day, 1984 so I'm getting the knack of it finally.
Well, this is the MS3 section, we are talking about turbos and, uh, I did include my car description and mods in the sig.
Not trying to be a smartass, but to have any cred with many of us, it does help to read what we post. New products bring hope and a healthy dose of skeptcism. AFR would have to stay on the low, safe side of 12 throughout the power band under load for me to feel comfortable with a tune, given that the stock tune does pretty damn well for many of us so far.
Forgive my attitude. I just need a lot more information. I'm 59 years old and have been racing and modding since I was 18 in a lot of different NA and forced induction cars. I've seen products and tuners come and go and seen the benefits from good stuff and the carnage from that which offers performance but delivers costly disappointment or outright disaster.
And when someone comes here promoting a new tuning device and is running a TiAL BOV on a MAF engine it gives me pause to wonder about some of the statements being made. Can you even run that BOV in recirc mode and is he doing so? Is that an Alpha Q? Will it fit? Isn't it a bit large for our application?
Yes, AFR's in the 10 or 11 to one range would be safe if it is consistent and reliable. I'd go up to close to 12, but no higher under any "on boost" situations with this engine.
Last edited:
AequitasVeritas
Member
- :
- 2007 Mazdaspeed3
I haven't run in recirc since i got the car. have never had any issues. The Tial is a 60mm if memory serves me right. I will have AFR once i get my wideband and downpipe.
Thanks, jmac36. This is what I suspected. Yes, you can lean the crap out of it, up the boost to 18-19, advance the timing all at the same time and make a good dyno run that looks impressive --- for short duration.
But for us that would be zoom, zoom, boom for anything beyond occasional romping, I would think. Certainly not good news for sustained engine life. Add a downpipe on that tune and she'll probably grenade on that tune unless fuel/load cut is kept active, since I know from personal experience that a good dp/rp will cause boost to go up 1-2 pounds in and of itself.
And, with all respect to the member who dynoed after using this programmer, for the life of me, it makes no sense whatsoever to try to operate this car VTA if you are really serious about perfomance and think about what VTA does on an engine where the air mass is determined by a sensor located out where ours is and then discharge part of that metered air outside the engine rather than sending it back into the intake.
Reviews of Hypertech products for other applications are mixed at best and there seems to be almost universal disdain for their customer service and their willingness to work with customers after the product is sold, especially when the customers are reporting issues and trying to return the product and get a refund.
I think I'll stay on the stock tune for the time being, or consider going Cobb's AP with a custom tune, considering my present mods would not be compatible with their off the shelf maps.
But for us that would be zoom, zoom, boom for anything beyond occasional romping, I would think. Certainly not good news for sustained engine life. Add a downpipe on that tune and she'll probably grenade on that tune unless fuel/load cut is kept active, since I know from personal experience that a good dp/rp will cause boost to go up 1-2 pounds in and of itself.
And, with all respect to the member who dynoed after using this programmer, for the life of me, it makes no sense whatsoever to try to operate this car VTA if you are really serious about perfomance and think about what VTA does on an engine where the air mass is determined by a sensor located out where ours is and then discharge part of that metered air outside the engine rather than sending it back into the intake.
Reviews of Hypertech products for other applications are mixed at best and there seems to be almost universal disdain for their customer service and their willingness to work with customers after the product is sold, especially when the customers are reporting issues and trying to return the product and get a refund.
I think I'll stay on the stock tune for the time being, or consider going Cobb's AP with a custom tune, considering my present mods would not be compatible with their off the shelf maps.
Last edited:
The "are you running an MS3" was directed to Veritas who was providing some info and a dyno sheet on the Hypertech unit..didn't know if the work was done on a customer's car or his, that's all.
I find it hard to believe that the Hypertech program sent to the MS3 owner will have an AFR in the 13:1 range unless they are complete incompetents. I'll be interested to see what my widebands show..I use my stock wideband and a secondary AEM.
Having a BOV compared to a BPV will cause a rich blip lasting a second or less which doesn't really affect the car's performance since you're off the throttle but can cause a pop or two in cars tuned to the rich side to begin with. If you get on and off WOT boost very quickly it can cause some driveability gliches in the form of stuttering/jerking especially if you have you have a mile of tubing/IC/tubing from turbo cold outlet to throttle body. Some stock road track turbo users like the decrease in EGT they see after a long straight away run at full boost as they lift into the curve although most of them have the MAF on the compressed side if the rules permit.
Anyway, let's see what happens.
I find it hard to believe that the Hypertech program sent to the MS3 owner will have an AFR in the 13:1 range unless they are complete incompetents. I'll be interested to see what my widebands show..I use my stock wideband and a secondary AEM.
Having a BOV compared to a BPV will cause a rich blip lasting a second or less which doesn't really affect the car's performance since you're off the throttle but can cause a pop or two in cars tuned to the rich side to begin with. If you get on and off WOT boost very quickly it can cause some driveability gliches in the form of stuttering/jerking especially if you have you have a mile of tubing/IC/tubing from turbo cold outlet to throttle body. Some stock road track turbo users like the decrease in EGT they see after a long straight away run at full boost as they lift into the curve although most of them have the MAF on the compressed side if the rules permit.
Anyway, let's see what happens.
Last edited:
Thanks, no offense intended. Sorry for misunderstanding who you were addressing. Yes, it would be good to get good accurate data on a MS3 tuned with this programmer and see whether it builds safe power and whether it would be adaptable to changes from adding other performance mods.
I think what some of us are seeing regarding BOVs on MS3s, those running on the stock ECU are seeing the ECU "detune" the car over time trying to adjust for the lost air vented to atmosphere on BOV cars. BOV cars seem to be dynoing lower with similar mods than cars with BPV's. This is just a theory, but something is happening with the ECU when they try to adjust, over time, from the missing air resulting in a drop in performance across the board and not just from momentary richness assocated with a shift.
I think what some of us are seeing regarding BOVs on MS3s, those running on the stock ECU are seeing the ECU "detune" the car over time trying to adjust for the lost air vented to atmosphere on BOV cars. BOV cars seem to be dynoing lower with similar mods than cars with BPV's. This is just a theory, but something is happening with the ECU when they try to adjust, over time, from the missing air resulting in a drop in performance across the board and not just from momentary richness assocated with a shift.
Point taken..interesting theory. If sophisticated enough, I could see repetitive rich bumps making the long term trim want to lean out things a tad. Since the stock setup errors on the rich side for engine safety you would think that would help a bit on the HP side unless timing retard starts to enter into the equation which is very possible...stock Bosch ECU's will pull timing preferentially over adjusting the AFR down. Life was a lot easier with the older "closed loop" changing to "open" with WOT ECU's. The latest Gen. EMU's have minimized the simpler "open loop" function even at full throttle, something a stock MS3's throttle by wire setup never sees anyway ( full open throttle that is).
BTW, the Hypertech tech stated the program is for a stock set up, albeit a cold air intake would be tolerated. A DP/test pipe would make for some fun but could easily lead to some expensive noises..even if driven conservatively, I bet the stock "baby" K04 turbo with that low restriction could see some raw fuel in the exhaust manifold at steady state high boost besides tickling its surge limit leading to the turbo turbine's demise. I see posts about smoking turbo's on low restricted exhausts and don't always think this is the PCV system's fault as do a few of you folks too...specially since our turbo is really rather borderline in size for a 2.3 liter. A compressor map for an old Rajay Model 377B turbo with our A/R and other similar specs is already up to 85% efficient at 400 CFM airflow, 15 psi. Our turbo would have a lot more reserve on a 1.8-2.0 liter air pump. The price for no turbo lag and decreasing the chances of overboost if the electronics/WG fail I suppose.
I aim to see if the Hypertech claim that it alters the partial throttle closure limit in lower gears and when the ECU see's "yaw" on turning holds true, what AFR's pop up, and whether the ECU tries to readjust back to base over time (as far as the AFR/timing/boost max). In fact I hope the stock computer does provide feedback from it's various sensors in these areas still. The problem with standalone ECU's in the past have been their inability to modify those 3D maps downloaded re: a single point in time with its temperature, humidity, barometer reading, etc. That idle map which worked great at 75 degrees is a whole different animal at 40 degrees. I'd watch the trackside Bosch engineers program their ALMS cars via telemetry on practice days only to guestimate the setup on a now rainy, cold raceday when ECU via telemetry changes was prohibited.
BTW, the Hypertech tech stated the program is for a stock set up, albeit a cold air intake would be tolerated. A DP/test pipe would make for some fun but could easily lead to some expensive noises..even if driven conservatively, I bet the stock "baby" K04 turbo with that low restriction could see some raw fuel in the exhaust manifold at steady state high boost besides tickling its surge limit leading to the turbo turbine's demise. I see posts about smoking turbo's on low restricted exhausts and don't always think this is the PCV system's fault as do a few of you folks too...specially since our turbo is really rather borderline in size for a 2.3 liter. A compressor map for an old Rajay Model 377B turbo with our A/R and other similar specs is already up to 85% efficient at 400 CFM airflow, 15 psi. Our turbo would have a lot more reserve on a 1.8-2.0 liter air pump. The price for no turbo lag and decreasing the chances of overboost if the electronics/WG fail I suppose.
I aim to see if the Hypertech claim that it alters the partial throttle closure limit in lower gears and when the ECU see's "yaw" on turning holds true, what AFR's pop up, and whether the ECU tries to readjust back to base over time (as far as the AFR/timing/boost max). In fact I hope the stock computer does provide feedback from it's various sensors in these areas still. The problem with standalone ECU's in the past have been their inability to modify those 3D maps downloaded re: a single point in time with its temperature, humidity, barometer reading, etc. That idle map which worked great at 75 degrees is a whole different animal at 40 degrees. I'd watch the trackside Bosch engineers program their ALMS cars via telemetry on practice days only to guestimate the setup on a now rainy, cold raceday when ECU via telemetry changes was prohibited.
Chris@Hypertech
Member
Hypertech
Hi, my name is Chris, and I work for Hypertech and will be participating on the forum to field questions that come up about our products. I know its been long overdue, but I want to make this introduction post on behalf of Hypertech. There have been several posts commenting and asking questions about Hypertech and the new Max Energy Sport, and I hope I can answer most of those here. Theres a lot to cover, so this post is pretty long. You can shoot me a PM or even better, post up question up on the board for me to answer. Im sure a lot of people will benefit from clear answers. Ill do my best. Here's some specific information reguarding our tunes for the Mazdaspeed.
The vehicle we used to develop our tuning initially was a 2008 Mazdaspeed 3. The car had 4,836miles on it when we bought it. The first thing we did was stare at the engine bay and contemplate how to dyno it and get repeatable and accurate results. The top mount intercooler needed good airflow to keep the dyno testing accurate without excessive time between dyno runs. We fabricated a bracket to a 16 axial fan to bolt it right on top of the intercooler. With over 1200cfm pumping through the intercooler the dyno runs could be made 5-7minutes apart with great repeatability. We also outfitted the exhaust and intake tract with several temperature and pressure sensors so we could accurately determine the efficiency of the turbocharger and engine more accurately. (See attached photo).
We wanted to know EVERYTHING about what our tuning changes were affecting. We even measured the airflow after the blow-off valve to determine if it leaked under boost! It doesnt, but now we all know for sure. In the end, the tuning we developed was thoroughly tested and measured to ensure a great tune without pushing the engine and turbocharger past their limits even when we are pushing the engine to 7200RPM on a daily basis (+500RPM above the stock rev limiter).
We use AWD Superflow dynos which have a roll weight of 4400lbs. This simulates a fully loaded Mazdaspeed6 almost perfectly (4550lbs GVWR), which is an ideal testing scenario. All of our dyno pulls were made in 4th gear and take about 30seconds to complete. And we took what we developed at wide open throttle and moved the performance gains into the rest of the maps at part throttle. Once we were finished developing on the dyno and hit the road we only had to make minor adjustments to the tune to make it perfect. Thats so nice from a tuning standpoint, because it eliminates multiple sessions on the dyno. Plus, it confirms that our testing on the dyno really does simulate what the cars are going to experience in the real world, off the dyno.
Once we were finished with the tuning, we drove the car with the stock tune and then with our tune again. The Hypertech tune can be felt everywhere you drive; from part throttle driving in traffic to wide open on the track. We then realized that the low speed torque that the Hypertech tune makes was dramatically more than stock. The Hypertech tune just annihilates the tires when you put the pedal to the floor in first and second gear. Of course, the stock tune also does a good job at roasting tires, but its much less dramatic once youve gotten accustomed to the car. We just werent sure that everybody would want that kind of torque at low speeds. So, we spent some time roasting the tires from a stop, and figured out how to keep that low speed power under control like the factory tune without sacrificing the extra power at the higher speeds of the upper gears. We decided to add this tune to the Sport in the for of the 0-60 MPH Electronic Throttle Restriction option. It may not be the most accurate description of whats going on, but to the average Joe it does convey what it feels like behind the wheel.
Once we finished fine tuning the car on the road, we put the car back up on our dyno and measured the final power numbers. The graph we published comes from this 4th gear dyno session. The results are from three repeatable runs from the stock tune and the Hypertech tune. If you take your stock car to the dyno we expect your power to lay right on top of ours. Of course if you have mods like an air intake and/or exhaust, youll make even more.
The end tune thats in the Sport puts peak boost around 17-18psi which is about 3psi more than stock peak-to-peak during a dyno pull. Boost pressure comes on full at 2800-3000RPM and holds flat until about 5500RPM where it is tuned to trail off. This was due to the turbocharger efficiency dropping drastically as it tried to keep up with the airflow of the engine in the higher RPMs. Maintaining boost to redline would give a additional 10-20HP, but at the cost of ~200degF EGTs. That type of inefficiency would degrade the engine and turbocharger longevity. With our tune we are less than 100F hotter than stock during a dyno pull (~50F peak vs. peak). We just didnt want to do that with our tuning, and your car.
If you realize that the turbocharger is just an air pump, it stands to reason that it has a maximum airflow that it can pump efficiently. And you can see this in our dyno chart pretty clearly. The horsepower curve with our tune holds at roughly 250HP from 5000RPM to 6000RPM, and then trails off quickly. The turbocharger reaches its peak efficiency and holds there for roughly 1000RPM. Instead of pushing the airflow from the turbocharger in the higher RPMs by holding the boost steady, we had to roll it off to keep from superheating the air and overspinning the turbocharger. To make more power with this turbocharger, other parts are needed (air intake and exhaust).
Knowing that air intakes are pretty common, and a good idea for the power hungry, we went back to the dyno and retuned for several different air intakes. In a few weeks we will add this option to the Max Energy Sport as a free update to anyone who already has one, and all subsequent Sports will ship with the option already in them. The option will simply ask if you have an aftermarket air intake installed, and allow you to choose which one. The tunes are specific for each intake, so its not advisable to pick and choose. We have developed tunes for the following air intakes: Mazdaspeed, AEM, K&N, CorkSport, Injen, and Takeda. Compared to the stock air intake, these intakes dramatically lower the restriction the turbocharger is fighting to get air. With the Hypertech tune, the air pressure in the inlet tube going to the turbocharger drops from 4.5inHg to only 3.1inHg. Thats 30% less restrictive than stock. Typically the air intakes to alter the airflow going to the mass air meter, so this must be corrected. The mass air flow sensor is essentially the brain of the operations in the computer. If its not calibrated correctly there are a lot things that dont get calculated correctly. Once everything is corrected, the result is almost one more pound of boost from the turbocharger just because it can get the air with less restriction.
All totaled, weve made over 1100 dyno pulls so far. The car has over 12,000 miles on it today. Thats almost 8,000miles just tuning and testing this car. It is not a daily driver. It is a test mule that only gets driven for tuning and testing purposes. We have explored this tune from top to bottom to make sure it was the best tune we could make. And this is not out of the ordinary. I hope this explains the level of work and professionalism that has goes into our tuning.
Hi, my name is Chris, and I work for Hypertech and will be participating on the forum to field questions that come up about our products. I know its been long overdue, but I want to make this introduction post on behalf of Hypertech. There have been several posts commenting and asking questions about Hypertech and the new Max Energy Sport, and I hope I can answer most of those here. Theres a lot to cover, so this post is pretty long. You can shoot me a PM or even better, post up question up on the board for me to answer. Im sure a lot of people will benefit from clear answers. Ill do my best. Here's some specific information reguarding our tunes for the Mazdaspeed.
The vehicle we used to develop our tuning initially was a 2008 Mazdaspeed 3. The car had 4,836miles on it when we bought it. The first thing we did was stare at the engine bay and contemplate how to dyno it and get repeatable and accurate results. The top mount intercooler needed good airflow to keep the dyno testing accurate without excessive time between dyno runs. We fabricated a bracket to a 16 axial fan to bolt it right on top of the intercooler. With over 1200cfm pumping through the intercooler the dyno runs could be made 5-7minutes apart with great repeatability. We also outfitted the exhaust and intake tract with several temperature and pressure sensors so we could accurately determine the efficiency of the turbocharger and engine more accurately. (See attached photo).
We wanted to know EVERYTHING about what our tuning changes were affecting. We even measured the airflow after the blow-off valve to determine if it leaked under boost! It doesnt, but now we all know for sure. In the end, the tuning we developed was thoroughly tested and measured to ensure a great tune without pushing the engine and turbocharger past their limits even when we are pushing the engine to 7200RPM on a daily basis (+500RPM above the stock rev limiter).
We use AWD Superflow dynos which have a roll weight of 4400lbs. This simulates a fully loaded Mazdaspeed6 almost perfectly (4550lbs GVWR), which is an ideal testing scenario. All of our dyno pulls were made in 4th gear and take about 30seconds to complete. And we took what we developed at wide open throttle and moved the performance gains into the rest of the maps at part throttle. Once we were finished developing on the dyno and hit the road we only had to make minor adjustments to the tune to make it perfect. Thats so nice from a tuning standpoint, because it eliminates multiple sessions on the dyno. Plus, it confirms that our testing on the dyno really does simulate what the cars are going to experience in the real world, off the dyno.
Once we were finished with the tuning, we drove the car with the stock tune and then with our tune again. The Hypertech tune can be felt everywhere you drive; from part throttle driving in traffic to wide open on the track. We then realized that the low speed torque that the Hypertech tune makes was dramatically more than stock. The Hypertech tune just annihilates the tires when you put the pedal to the floor in first and second gear. Of course, the stock tune also does a good job at roasting tires, but its much less dramatic once youve gotten accustomed to the car. We just werent sure that everybody would want that kind of torque at low speeds. So, we spent some time roasting the tires from a stop, and figured out how to keep that low speed power under control like the factory tune without sacrificing the extra power at the higher speeds of the upper gears. We decided to add this tune to the Sport in the for of the 0-60 MPH Electronic Throttle Restriction option. It may not be the most accurate description of whats going on, but to the average Joe it does convey what it feels like behind the wheel.
Once we finished fine tuning the car on the road, we put the car back up on our dyno and measured the final power numbers. The graph we published comes from this 4th gear dyno session. The results are from three repeatable runs from the stock tune and the Hypertech tune. If you take your stock car to the dyno we expect your power to lay right on top of ours. Of course if you have mods like an air intake and/or exhaust, youll make even more.
The end tune thats in the Sport puts peak boost around 17-18psi which is about 3psi more than stock peak-to-peak during a dyno pull. Boost pressure comes on full at 2800-3000RPM and holds flat until about 5500RPM where it is tuned to trail off. This was due to the turbocharger efficiency dropping drastically as it tried to keep up with the airflow of the engine in the higher RPMs. Maintaining boost to redline would give a additional 10-20HP, but at the cost of ~200degF EGTs. That type of inefficiency would degrade the engine and turbocharger longevity. With our tune we are less than 100F hotter than stock during a dyno pull (~50F peak vs. peak). We just didnt want to do that with our tuning, and your car.
If you realize that the turbocharger is just an air pump, it stands to reason that it has a maximum airflow that it can pump efficiently. And you can see this in our dyno chart pretty clearly. The horsepower curve with our tune holds at roughly 250HP from 5000RPM to 6000RPM, and then trails off quickly. The turbocharger reaches its peak efficiency and holds there for roughly 1000RPM. Instead of pushing the airflow from the turbocharger in the higher RPMs by holding the boost steady, we had to roll it off to keep from superheating the air and overspinning the turbocharger. To make more power with this turbocharger, other parts are needed (air intake and exhaust).
Knowing that air intakes are pretty common, and a good idea for the power hungry, we went back to the dyno and retuned for several different air intakes. In a few weeks we will add this option to the Max Energy Sport as a free update to anyone who already has one, and all subsequent Sports will ship with the option already in them. The option will simply ask if you have an aftermarket air intake installed, and allow you to choose which one. The tunes are specific for each intake, so its not advisable to pick and choose. We have developed tunes for the following air intakes: Mazdaspeed, AEM, K&N, CorkSport, Injen, and Takeda. Compared to the stock air intake, these intakes dramatically lower the restriction the turbocharger is fighting to get air. With the Hypertech tune, the air pressure in the inlet tube going to the turbocharger drops from 4.5inHg to only 3.1inHg. Thats 30% less restrictive than stock. Typically the air intakes to alter the airflow going to the mass air meter, so this must be corrected. The mass air flow sensor is essentially the brain of the operations in the computer. If its not calibrated correctly there are a lot things that dont get calculated correctly. Once everything is corrected, the result is almost one more pound of boost from the turbocharger just because it can get the air with less restriction.
All totaled, weve made over 1100 dyno pulls so far. The car has over 12,000 miles on it today. Thats almost 8,000miles just tuning and testing this car. It is not a daily driver. It is a test mule that only gets driven for tuning and testing purposes. We have explored this tune from top to bottom to make sure it was the best tune we could make. And this is not out of the ordinary. I hope this explains the level of work and professionalism that has goes into our tuning.
AequitasVeritas
Member
- :
- 2007 Mazdaspeed3
#3, no, its a simple rewrite.
and for fasteract, yes I have a 2007 Mazdaspeed3 and it is daily driven by me.
and for fasteract, yes I have a 2007 Mazdaspeed3 and it is daily driven by me.
Chris @Hypertech...could you add a Cobb SRI (short ram intake) to your intake options. This one is probably 1 or 2 in popularity as an aftermarket intake.
Have installed the Hypertech programmer and initial impression is very good. I initially had a Cobb AP with a Stage 1 tune since I plan on this DD of mine to stay stock other than an intake and better (Forge) BPV. Wasn't that impressed with performance gain and sold it. Someone with the need for a custom tune could probably get their monies' worth out of it more than I. The Hypertech however is definitely providing a lot much punch in the low to midrange...
Have installed the Hypertech programmer and initial impression is very good. I initially had a Cobb AP with a Stage 1 tune since I plan on this DD of mine to stay stock other than an intake and better (Forge) BPV. Wasn't that impressed with performance gain and sold it. Someone with the need for a custom tune could probably get their monies' worth out of it more than I. The Hypertech however is definitely providing a lot much punch in the low to midrange...
ok, so if its a simple rewrite, why is the file so big when the base maps are so small? 1.1mb vs the base maping on the ms3 being a 364kb file?
Sounds like a factory calibration file to me
Chris, thanks for the detailed information. I look forward to one of our members being able to post some independent datalogs through Dash Hawk, etc., on a Hypertech programmed MS3.
I do think that 17-18 psi sustained boost is safe provided that AFR's stay on the rich side and provided that the turbo does not see sustained operation above 5,800-6,000 rpm. That center shaft on the K04 turbo is only 4mm in size. The K04 is notorious for shaft failure due to excessive heat when it is operated at high boost conditions where the engine is running over 5,800 rpm. You cite the reason correctly -- that little (but responsive) turbo simply turns into a heat engine and EGT's kill the shaft, and accordingly the turbo when it is pushed outside its thermal efficiency range.
VW and Audi guys running the K04 have seen their tuners and turbo mod guys installing a separate EGT sensor directly on the turbo housing to keep an eye on that. Aftermarket supplier of K04's for upgrades on those cars are very careful to point out that the turbo cannot withstand turbo housing temps above 875 degrees C. (1600 degrees F.) On their turbos based on the engine flow characteristics of those cars, that temp is reached at 5,800 rpm and 15 psi boost. The result may be different on our larger displacement engine and slightly different K04. I simply do not know.
I'm sure you guys will take turbo life into consideration with your tunes.
I found your observations about aftermarket intakes very consistent with what we have all discovered on this board. There is a huge restriction in air flow through the stock air box. I did not realize that aftermarket intakes actually raise boost about one pound, but your observations make sense to me and I appreciate learning this.
Our stock exhaust is also very restrictive, but not from the CBE. The restriction is upstream in the downpipe and midpipe. Those of us who have corrected this with aftermarket downpipe and midpipe or racepipe (catted or catless) are seeing further boost increases so that it is not unusual for us to see 17-18 psi on a mechanical boost gauge with nothing more than a good intake and dp/rp mod.
I don't know if there is interest in taking aftermarket dp's into account as a tuning option, but I throw it out as a suggestion.
You guys are really putting in some serious R&D. This is helping me lower some initial skepticism that I have about all new products.
As you have also probably become quite aware, the stock ECU is very aggressive about slapping us with fuel cut when we get to 17 psi under load, especially when the weather is cold. That is a good thing to protect the engine. We (well, at least I) do not want to lose that protection, but would like to see a solution that raises the load limit just a tiny bit to allow for 17-18 psi boost, while still slapping us down with fuel cut above 18. Again, this is premised on the assumption that this can be done safely.
Sorry for my lenghty "wish list." Welcome to our little corner of the automotive world. I look forward to learning more about your product and any optional tunes you are considering.
I do think that 17-18 psi sustained boost is safe provided that AFR's stay on the rich side and provided that the turbo does not see sustained operation above 5,800-6,000 rpm. That center shaft on the K04 turbo is only 4mm in size. The K04 is notorious for shaft failure due to excessive heat when it is operated at high boost conditions where the engine is running over 5,800 rpm. You cite the reason correctly -- that little (but responsive) turbo simply turns into a heat engine and EGT's kill the shaft, and accordingly the turbo when it is pushed outside its thermal efficiency range.
VW and Audi guys running the K04 have seen their tuners and turbo mod guys installing a separate EGT sensor directly on the turbo housing to keep an eye on that. Aftermarket supplier of K04's for upgrades on those cars are very careful to point out that the turbo cannot withstand turbo housing temps above 875 degrees C. (1600 degrees F.) On their turbos based on the engine flow characteristics of those cars, that temp is reached at 5,800 rpm and 15 psi boost. The result may be different on our larger displacement engine and slightly different K04. I simply do not know.
I'm sure you guys will take turbo life into consideration with your tunes.
I found your observations about aftermarket intakes very consistent with what we have all discovered on this board. There is a huge restriction in air flow through the stock air box. I did not realize that aftermarket intakes actually raise boost about one pound, but your observations make sense to me and I appreciate learning this.
Our stock exhaust is also very restrictive, but not from the CBE. The restriction is upstream in the downpipe and midpipe. Those of us who have corrected this with aftermarket downpipe and midpipe or racepipe (catted or catless) are seeing further boost increases so that it is not unusual for us to see 17-18 psi on a mechanical boost gauge with nothing more than a good intake and dp/rp mod.
I don't know if there is interest in taking aftermarket dp's into account as a tuning option, but I throw it out as a suggestion.
You guys are really putting in some serious R&D. This is helping me lower some initial skepticism that I have about all new products.
As you have also probably become quite aware, the stock ECU is very aggressive about slapping us with fuel cut when we get to 17 psi under load, especially when the weather is cold. That is a good thing to protect the engine. We (well, at least I) do not want to lose that protection, but would like to see a solution that raises the load limit just a tiny bit to allow for 17-18 psi boost, while still slapping us down with fuel cut above 18. Again, this is premised on the assumption that this can be done safely.
Sorry for my lenghty "wish list." Welcome to our little corner of the automotive world. I look forward to learning more about your product and any optional tunes you are considering.
Last edited:
Chris@Hypertech
Member
MSMS3,
Thanks for your reply. We definitely like to hear the feedback.
We will be doing further testing with the aftermarket downpipes and cat back kits, and I'll pass that info along when it's completed.
You touched on something that I forgot to mention. With the Hypertech tuning, the boost cut and load cut limiters are tuned to allow for mods, but are left in place to protect the engine from a mechanical failure that may cause destruction if these limiters are removed. With the airmass calculations correctly measured, these limits can be used just like the factory tuning uses them.
Chris@Hypertech
Member
Fasteract,
The Cobb is added to the list, although they probably won't donate one for us to use!
I'm glad you like your Hypertech tune! Nothing against Cobb, they have a proven product, and have been in this market for a while. You won't here us talk bad about them, or any competitor. But you're exactly the type of person that our tuner was desinged for.
Chris@Hypertech
Member
It is obvious you are highly interested in our tuning changes as you have already purchased, tested, and attempted some reverse engineering to discover what we are or are not changing with our tunes.
I mean no disrespect, but the questions you are asking would reqire me to divulge proprietary information about our tuning processes and results, which I simply won't do. So please don't be offended if I don't directly answer some of your questions.
