New tire question: Avons or Michelins?

[bbrich57]

I too have have complained to Mazda USA through the Service Manager where I purchased my 3. To no avail, of course. When he let me know there would be no assistance from Mazda USA or the dealership, I told him that I hadn't really expected any but at least wanted the message to get through that Mazda was doing a disservice to its customers by putting tires on the 3 that are terrible at best and down right dangerous in many conditions. Furthermore, how can we expect Goodyear to stop manufacturing and selling (and profitting from) these awful tires if Mazda (and apparently Ford among other manufacturers) continue to support them through their mass purchases? And if they are paying anywhere near what they charge the general public, these car manfuacturers are getting ripped off big time as well.

I'm glad to know the message is coming from others as well.

I'll be very interested to hear if you get a response from Goodyear. And by the way, I was very pleased to see my "roadkill" description included in your remarks to them. Thanks!

Have you tried sending a message to MazdaUSA.com? I got the stock "we'll take it into consideration" answer via return e-mail... which is what I expected. But if enough of us current owners complain to them and to GoodYear, who knows? We might be able to save the baby buyers (newbies) from suffering the same fate as we.
Besides, it would be nice to see them take our advise and use it for the overall good of the vehicle.
About quoting your comment: You're certainly welcome! As you can tell, it made an impact on me. I felt it was the perfect description of how many of us seem to feel, and I was quoting, or paraphrasing it from memory too. I'm QUITE sure that they are getting a real bargain on these tires from every manufacturer. They buy in bulk and then the maker makes up the difference by boosting the MSRP of the replacements. ($243.00 ea.)
Some people don't know the difference between a good tire and roadkill, and will pay to put the GY's back on! As P.T.Barnum is known to have said, "there's a sucker born every minute."

 

[bbrich57]

I had the Avons installed yesterday. I'll soon see how they handle.
No snow here right now but it's plenty cold (-11 this morning) and cold pavement was enough to cause the crap Goodyears to break loose.
I'll report back on handling...

Hey Lucky,
I know it's still early, but how do you like the Avons?
I've been doing a lot of research on tires to replace mine lately and the only complaint I have seen about these is that the sidewall seems a bit "less stiff" than the GY's. They do seem like a very good choice overall. How has your experience been so far?
I too have an update: Much to my surprise I did get a message from Good Year customer service. I had to call them back, but when I did (I'll try to keep this short) I was told that these are the same tires that they put on Police cruisers. My first thought was, that there must be a lot of unhappy officers out there. (bang)
Then it occured to me that a Police cruiser is 2000 lbs. heavier and maybe that makes the difference.
So, I went back to the Tire Rack site and started looking... I found many customers that are driving very heavy cars, one, a Capice wagon and several Cadillac STS's, and they hate these things just as much as we do!!
The outcome of my conversation was that they arranged an appointment with a Good Year service center this coming week to discuss the problem in person and "perhaps" they will replace these things with something else... although I'm not yet sure at what cost to me.
The bad news is that they will only replace them with another Good Year, Dunlop or Kelly tire. Looking them up most don't have a suitable (HP, all-season) replacement, and the ones they do have seem to rate poorly also. Why jump out of the fire just to jump into another one?
What to do, what to do???
Signed, Frusterated and Confused. (braindead

 

[LuckyL]

Not much to go on...

Hey Lucky,
I know it's still early, but how do you like the Avons?
I've been doing a lot of research on tires to replace mine lately and the only complaint I have seen about these is that the sidewall seems a bit "less stiff" than the GY's. They do seem like a very good choice overall. How has your experience been so far?
I too have an update: Much to my surprise I did get a message from Good Year customer service. I had to call them back, but when I did (I'll try to keep this short) I was told that these are the same tires that they put on Police cruisers. My first thought was, that there must be a lot of unhappy officers out there. (bang)
Then it occured to me that a Police cruiser is 2000 lbs. heavier and maybe that makes the difference.
So, I went back to the Tire Rack site and started looking... I found many customers that are driving very heavy cars, one, a Capice wagon and several Cadillac STS's, and they hate these things just as much as we do!!
The outcome of my conversation was that they arranged an appointment with a Good Year service center this coming week to discuss the problem in person and "perhaps" they will replace these things with something else... although I'm not yet sure at what cost to me.
The bad news is that they will only replace them with another Good Year, Dunlop or Kelly tire. Looking them up most don't have a suitable (HP, all-season) replacement, and the ones they do have seem to rate poorly also. Why jump out of the fire just to jump into another one?
What to do, what to do???
Signed, Frusterated and Confused. (braindead

I am surprised you even got a call back from Goodyear! One would think tire manufacturers' would be interested enough in what people have to say about their experiences with their products to go look at Tire Rack's postings but hey that's assuming that they actually care about something other than that first sale. Frankly, customer satisfaction gets lots of lip service and not much actual attention these days.

As far as the Avons, two weeks in without complaint. They seem to grip better on dry pavement. There's one spot on my commute where I tend to pull out fast to beat whatever's coming (so I don't have to sit behind potential dogs who can't do the speed limit on some very minor curves down the road a bit) and the Goodyears would spin more often than not even on dry pavement. I've had no trouble with the Avons spinning in the same location.

Today we're getting some snow - it could accumulate enough for a test of snow handling. We've had no rain so can't comment even on wet pavement handling yet. (We've been in drought here since last spring.)

I'll keep posting as I have more to report.

LuckyL



And now I can safely say, YES! The Avons are MUCH BETTER in the snow and on wet pavement.

It was truly crappy here yesterday afternoon - snow starting around 1 pm with the temp near 40. I waited for a couple of inches to accumulate (although the ground was warm so not much was staying on the pavement) and then took the new tires out for a spin. The traction on wet pavement was greatly improved.

After a stop at the store, the temp had dropped to 31 and now the snow was building up and the base turning to slush. Other cars were beginning to loose traction and have a difficult time getting going after stops.

I found I could get enough traction to get going pretty quickly. Though I was still getting some spin, I was moving - and moving forward in a straight line! I did some quick maneuvers in the parking lot and found the car to be much more responsive and reliable in its turning, starting, and stopping.

The test was brief - and the real test will be the first drive in deep snow (not likely to happen this year now). Rain is forecast for later this week so I'll be further testing the Avons on wet pavement in the near future.

 

[bbrich57]

I am surprised you even got a call back from Goodyear! One would think tire manufacturers' would be interested enough in what people have to say about their experiences with their products to go look at Tire Rack's postings but hey that's assuming that they actually care about something other than that first sale. Frankly, customer satisfaction gets lots of lip service and not much actual attention these days.

Please see my GY negotiation update to confirm your worst fears!! I am PISSED and as far as I am concerned, will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, own another set of GY's as long as I live!!!!!

And now I can safely say, YES! The Avons are MUCH BETTER in the snow and on wet pavement.
The traction on wet pavement was greatly improved... ...I found I could get enough traction to get going pretty quickly. Though I was still getting some spin, I was moving - and moving forward in a straight line! I did some quick maneuvers in the parking lot and found the car to be much more responsive and reliable in its turning, starting, and stopping... ...Rain is forecast for later this week so I'll be further testing the Avons on wet pavement in the near future.

That is truly encouraging news, LuckyL! I am glad for you and am still considering the Avons for the "Virgin."
How is steering response? I have heard that the side walls are a little "slower" than the GY's and steering response is slightly reduced. Do you notice that?

 

[bbrich57]

GoodYear Revisited, or So I Thought!

OK Guys 'n' Gals, LISTEN UP! 'Time for the update.
I did get a reply from GoodYear and called their customer service department. To make a long story shorter, I was told the RS-A is standard equipment on Police Cruisers too. My immediate comment was, "No wonder the cops are always in such a bad mood!" But then I began to think... a 4500lb. car might react differently to these than a 2800 lb. car.
So I got back on TireRack.com and started looking around.... Nope! Wrong again! The Jaguar owners hate them. The Cadillac owners hate them. The Nissan owners hate them too, and even the Volkswagen owners! Was this a conspiracy against the poor RS-A, or GoodYear?
For my own sake of shopping for new tires I began looking at the Fuzion tires that TR seems to be pushing. When looking at the owner reviews of these, I found more negative comments directed toward the RS-A's... and I wasn't even looking for them!!!
OK, so, GY-CS arranged and appointment for me at a GoodYear "Gemini" service center (on Lamar@ Braker, for all you Austinites.) So I went there today to discuss my (our) problem.
I had done my homework and had printed out and highlighted parts of these forums as well as some of the TR-CR's I had found relating to the RS-A's. 'Told him that I was aware that I could buy better tires @ 1/4 the cost of RS-A's, or that I could buy RS-A's @ $140-$160.00 ea. and not the MSRP of $243.00 I had seen on the website.
In short (again,) after putting my car on the lift to see... what(?,) I don't know, and measure the tread depth (I did that myself while she was on the ground) I was told that the only tire that would "fit my car" out of the three lines that GY carries (GY, Dunlop and Kelly-Springfield) was the RS-A. As I'd said I had done my homework and knew better. They offered an $85.00 pro-rated trade-in value on my "USED" tires on the 30,000 mile plan (After a year and a half? No kidding? Whoa!! I told the GY-CS I had 19,000 miles on them) and had the opportunity to buy NEW RS-A's for a mere $270.00 ea. That's $28.00 a piece more than the MSRP just a week ago, plus mounting... balancing... and installation... @ $93.00/HR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't like the old ones that much! Why would I want new ones??
I laughed at the guy, told him to "GET MY CAR THE HELL OFF HIS LIFT AND THE HELL OUT OF HIS SHOP" and left, more insulted than I think I have ever been before. Here I thought that I had made it clear that I wasn't just some dummy off the street. (How do they stay in business?)
CLEARLY these people care nothing about their customers opinions, wants or SAFETY concerns.
Near the end, I even told him ("Andrew") that if GY would just "FIX" the problem I would be happy. NOTHING!! This guy was such a company flunky I couldn't imagine selling myself to any corporation the way he obviously has.
I hope you will all get on the GY website and clog up their mail server with complaints about these obviously overrated and certainly overpriced pieces of s***!! Please do. If we inundate them with more s*** of our own they may just have to do something about it.
It's clear to me that they "bought" the All-Season and hyped their own High Performance ratings. I am truly SICK of these people shoveling their s*** on the public and trying to make us believe that it's really "gold!"

 

[LuckyL]

OK Guys 'n' Gals, LISTEN UP! 'Time for the update.
I did get a reply from GoodYear and called their customer service department. To make a long story shorter, I was told the RS-A is standard equipment on Police Cruisers too. My immediate comment was, "No wonder the cops are always in such a bad mood!" But then I began to think... a 4500lb. car might react differently to these than a 2800 lb. car.
So I got back on TireRack.com and started looking around.... Nope! Wrong again! The Jaguar owners hate them. The Cadillac owners hate them. The Nissan owners hate them too, and even the Volkswagen owners! Was this a conspiracy against the poor RS-A, or GoodYear?
For my own sake of shopping for new tires I began looking at the Fuzion tires that TR seems to be pushing. When looking at the owner reviews of these, I found more negative comments directed toward the RS-A's... and I wasn't even looking for them!!!
OK, so, GY-CS arranged and appointment for me at a GoodYear "Gemini" service center (on Lamar@ Braker, for all you Austinites.) So I went there today to discuss my (our) problem.
I had done my homework and had printed out and highlighted parts of these forums as well as some of the TR-CR's I had found relating to the RS-A's. 'Told him that I was aware that I could buy better tires @ 1/4 the cost of RS-A's, or that I could buy RS-A's @ $140-$160.00 ea. and not the MSRP of $243.00 I had seen on the website.
In short (again,) after putting my car on the lift to see... what(?,) I don't know, and measure the tread depth (I did that myself while she was on the ground) I was told that the only tire that would "fit my car" out of the three lines that GY carries (GY, Dunlop and Kelly-Springfield) was the RS-A. As I'd said I had done my homework and knew better. They offered an $85.00 pro-rated trade-in value on my "USED" tires on the 30,000 mile plan (After a year and a half? No kidding? Whoa!! I told the GY-CS I had 19,000 miles on them) and had the opportunity to buy NEW RS-A's for a mere $270.00 ea. That's $28.00 a piece more than the MSRP just a week ago, plus mounting... balancing... and installation... @ $93.00/HR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't like the old ones that much! Why would I want new ones??
I laughed at the guy, told him to "GET MY CAR THE HELL OFF HIS LIFT AND THE HELL OUT OF HIS SHOP" and left, more insulted than I think I have ever been before. Here I thought that I had made it clear that I wasn't just some dummy off the street. (How do they stay in business?)
CLEARLY these people care nothing about their customers opinions, wants or SAFETY concerns.
Near the end, I even told him ("Andrew") that if GY would just "FIX" the problem I would be happy. NOTHING!! This guy was such a company flunky I couldn't imagine selling myself to any corporation the way he obviously has.
I hope you will all get on the GY website and clog up their mail server with complaints about these obviously overrated and certainly overpriced pieces of s***!! Please do. If we inundate them with more s*** of our own they may just have to do something about it.
It's clear to me that they "bought" the All-Season and hyped their own High Performance ratings. I am truly SICK of these people shoveling their s*** on the public and trying to make us believe that it's really "gold!"

Tell us how you really feel...

Maybe I'm not that hard of a driver (though I am very aggresive). I find the Avons handle just find thank you. Granted I don't have a lot of road time on them yet but I certainly haven't noticed a downturn of handling in comparison to those POS RSAs in dry conditions.

Hey I've got 4 tires in my garage for sale - only 11,000 miles on them. Any takers? (I'm figuring I can pawn them off on someone at mom's next garage sale - I'll sell 'em for what they're worth - next to nothing.)

 

[bbrich57]

Tell us how you really feel...
Maybe I'm not that hard of a driver (though I am very aggresive). I find the Avons handle just find thank you. Granted I don't have a lot of road time on them yet but I certainly haven't noticed a downturn of handling in comparison to those POS RSAs in dry conditions.

Just what I was hoping to hear, Lucky. You may have just helped me make up my mind.
And, No! I am not interested in your used tires, but thanks just the same. (hah)
Do I sound bitter? Nahhhhh...... (Bastards!!)

 

[goldwing2000]

That's insane. I mean... do they think you're a complete moron?

"I hate these tires."

"We'll sell you a new set of the same ones for double what they should normally cost."

Did they actually think this was a viable option?? Were they smoking crack??
It boggles the mind.

Unbelievable. I've always hated Badyear tires, this is just more fuel to the fire.

 

[bbrich57]

That's insane. I mean... do they think you're a complete moron?

Apparently they thought they were smarter than I was... or they just don't care. They DID manage to waste about an hour of my time... much more if you include the research and documentation time. I had (have) a file the size of a Sunday newspaper.

"I hate these tires."

Hey GW, if it helps, you are FAR from alone on that one.

"We'll sell you a new set of the same ones for double what they should normally cost."
Did they actually think this was a viable option?? Were they smoking crack??
It boggles the mind.

I guess they did. I asked him if I was there and this problem is not just limited to my car or M3's in general, then why would I want another set? I was actually nice to this guy and trying to reason with him. His comment, "those are the only tires we have for your car. If you don't want the deal I guess we can't help you, Sir."
So I asked, you mean the only tires you have in stock? "No, the only tires we can GET in that size."
That's when I lost it and told him to get my car the hell off his lift, etc.
I told him before they took my car into the shop that I KNEW I could get better tires, or even the RS-A's much cheaper than the MSRP. A week ago it was $242.??, and that that was a ridiculous price to charge for tires in the first place. When he quoted me $270.96 ea. I didn't question it, but instead got back on the Good Year site and sure enough, they've gone up $28.00 a piece in one week... Current MSRP for an RS-A, size 205/50 x 17" = $270.96!!!

Unbelievable. I've always hated Badyear tires, this is just more fuel to the fire.

Well, even GoodYear couldn't ignore all of us along with everyone else who hates them.
I'm quite serious about inundating them with complaint and e-mails. I'm serious about starting a campaign. I say, F--k GoodYear at least as much as they are F--king us, the public. Or is this just being naive?

 

[goldwing2000]

Hey GW, if it helps, you are FAR from alone on that one.

That was actually me quoting the conversation you had with the dumbass at the shop. I got rid of my Good-for-a-Years 22,000 miles ago! (thumb)

A couple years ago, my regular tire guy actually talked me into a set of Kellys (instead of the Yokohamas that I wanted) for my GF's car. Big mistake. After like a year, one tire developed some sort of weird dip in the tread. Like a separated belt but not. These are supposed to be 80,000 mile tires and this one takes a crap after less than 10k. I took it back in and they offer to replace it under the pro-rated warranty for $30, even though I paid extra for road hazard protection.
I declined. I figure I'll just let her drive on it until it shreds and then let the road hazard cover it.

I told him if he ever tries to sell me Goodyear crap again, I'll punch him in the mouth.

 

[bbrich57]

"That was actually me quoting the conversation you had with the dumbass at the shop. I got rid of my Good-for-a-Years 22,000 miles ago! (thumb) "
Ooopps! Sorry. Missed the quotation marks.

"I told him if he ever tries to sell me Goodyear crap again, I'll punch him in the mouth."
Go Get 'em GoldWing! So, is your "regular tire guy" still your regular tire guy?
I don't claim to know the Dunlops that well, except a friend had some on a BMW 2002 some years ago. They were noisy and I thought a little hard compounded for that car too. The ones I was looking at "looked" good but who knows?
Do you remember Kleber tires? I don't think they import them anymore but were made in Holland and France, and were really cheap (about $30 for the 185/70 x 15's I was running,) but really good too.

 

[goldwing2000]

Yeah, he's still my tire guy. He always takes care of me and he apologized for the crappy Kellys, so no hard feelings.

I don't know much about Dunlop car tires, either. I know a bit about their bike tires. My three favorite brands for car tires right now are Yokohama, Kumho and Toyo. I've had very good luck with all three.

For my truck tires, I just get whatever is cheapest and has the gnarliest tread. (thumb)

Never heard of Kleber. Must be before my time.

 

[bbrich57]

...My three favorite brands for car tires right now are Yokohama, Kumho and Toyo. I've had very good luck with all three.
Never heard of Kleber. Must be before my time.

Well, maybe not before but you musta' been around 13 then.
I just did a search and they do seem to be hard to find. Ag tires in Canada and a site in the Netherlands that carries automotive tires. Oh well, too bad.
I have been reconsidering the Avons after the other thread here, but am now leaning more towards the Falken Ze-512 all-seasons. And I'm still keeping the Kumho in mind too. I guess I won't be sure until I actually get serious. Unfortunately I gotta' wear out the GY's first... that won't be too long from now, I suspect.

The problem with your wife's tires is that you went wider with the same aspect ratio.

I think the problem with my wife's car is mostly my wife. When I drive it, on occasion, I don't have any problems... certainly less than with my own ride.
But I know what you mean by the size/ratio thing. My point was is that that is what Discount tire "recommended" telling me that a 175/70 would be much harder to find these days. I was concerned about it then, knew it would throw the speedo off, but after a blow out and two previous flats needed tires for it right away. 'Not a lot of time for research. It's a first gen ('95) Saturn. 100 HP on a good day.
Ironically, I was replacing yet ANOTHER set of GY's ("Club" Radials) and they were crap too!! The Kumhos are certainly a better tire than they were.

...For instance, the Kumho Ecsta ASX in 225/45-17 is recommended for use on a wheel between 7.0 and 8.5 inches wide. Half an inch may not seem like much but it can make a big difference if the tire isn't designed for it.

Also a good point. And, thanks for the link. I guess starting with a short aspect ratio, and going to a shorter one increases that phenomenon 10 fold, and wheel width becomes that much more critical. I understand.
I have to admit that these 50 series tires are the shortest sidewall I have had to deal with.
Before this I was happy to take my Honda Civic from a stock 155/80-12, to a 185/60-13. Really that's all that car could handle anyway. I wouldn't have gained anything by going wider or taller, and that was a big move for me back then. I ran shaved A507's Yokos (just try to find those now) and BFG's T/A's on that car. The BFG's were a good tire and I had no complaints but a little too hard for a 1987lb car, or 2137 lbs (+/-) w/me (145lbs,) gloves and a helmet on board. (poke)

 

[rodslinger]

I'll add to the Goodyear hate rant.

When I buy a car I usually take the car to my favorite Bridgestone dealer and swap the OEM tires for a good set of Potenzas. They usually give me a healthy trade in as the tires only have about 10 miles on them when I do it. Rarely has my out of pocket cost been more than $75 for the swap.

Well for the first time in 18 years I left the OEM tires on. This is for my wife's 3S Sedan. I have to say that I will be going back to my original trend. Taking the Goodyears off and putting something else on ASAP. Although they did last about 28,000 miles the past two years was difficult. The NEVER balanced out properly, always had at least one tire with some sort of slow leak and just didn't handle in a predictable manner. In short and as stated by others, the RS-A's SUCK.

Here is another kicker about Goodyear games. The OEM tire size on my 2000 Dodge Dakota was up until last year only supplied by Goodyear. They must really be good bed buddies with the auto manufacturers to put such junk on so many vehicles. Of course I never bought replacements from them. I just went up a size to get more choices. I was in no mood to pay $180 each for another crappy tire when I had better choices for almost half as much.

 

[bbrich57]

I'll add to the Goodyear hate rant.
In short and as stated by others, the RS-A's SUCK.
Here is another kicker about Goodyear games. The OEM tire size on my 2000 Dodge Dakota was up until last year only supplied by Goodyear. They must really be good bed buddies with the auto manufacturers to put such junk on so many vehicles. Of course I never bought replacements from them. I just went up a size to get more choices. I was in no mood to pay $180 each for another crappy tire when I had better choices for almost half as much.

Thank you, Rod. That's GREAT!! I feel we all NEED to do this even if it turns out to be a waste of time in the end. I just can't sit back and let them get away with potential murder.
I nearly slid into oncoming traffic on my way to work here in Austin @ 4:30 AM just the other morning in a rain storm going 40 mph on a slight downhill, right-hand jog!! Nearly no other traffic going my way.
As so many of their tire products, including Dunlops and Kelly-Springfields rate poorly, or at best mediocre by consumers, how do they expect to keep customers coming back? It doesn't seem that repurchase is GY's biggest priority. I have to wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. The money grants/contracts from our Federal goverment and car manufacturer's must outweight individual customer complaints.
Expect to get a call from the GY customer service people, as I did.
And yes, I am convinced that a large corporation such as GY makes very good "bed buddies" with the car companies and the rest of us are paying for it, as well as their profit margins and race tire program. Think Jeff Gordon, etc would mind?
As the saying goes, "Rock On!"

 

[goldwing2000]

I guess starting with a short aspect ratio, and going to a shorter one increases that phenomenon 10 fold, and wheel width becomes that much more critical. I understand. I have to admit that these 50 series tires are the shortest sidewall I have had to deal with.

Actually, the 225/45 and the 205/50 have physically the same size sidewall, it's just the wider section width makes that physical size a smaller percentage.

Regardless of all that, different tire companies make different rubber thicknesses and that's what will determine if the tread balloons or not. A thinner rubber thickness on the sidewall will flex more and allow the tread to retain its shape. A thicker rubber on the sidewall will not flex as much and can cause the tread to rise in the center.

It's just so much easier to follow the tire manufacturer's recommendations. They spend lots of hours and lots of dollars researching this stuff, so you might as well trust them.
Well... except for Goodyear. (loser)

 

[bbrich57]

"Actually, the 225/45 and the 205/50 have physically the same size sidewall, it's just the wider section width makes that physical size a smaller percentage. "

Yup. I know, and I think I would like to do that too, but new wheels are not in my (wife's) budget. (thumb)
Also, watching the unsprung weight is a concern I have. Since I am not planning to race this thang, short of an occasional non-serious AutoX w/the Austin M3 club (for me, at least,) increasing to that size may not have any affect at all on the daily drive. Or it's possible that it might actually have a negative affect, as was the recommendation w/the Honda I spoke about. Larger wheels/tires= more unsprung weight.
Dennis Samantis (R&T Magazine) did an excellent article on the positive affects of reducing unsprung weight, and how larger wheels/shorter tires as well as brakes are usually heavier and can actually make the vehicle handle worse and "feel' heavier to steer! I think that was just two months ago.

 

[goldwing2000]

Dennis Samantis (R&T Magazine) did an excellent article on the positive affects of reducing unsprung weight, and how larger wheels/shorter tires as well as brakes are usually heavier and can actually make the vehicle handle worse and "feel' heavier to steer! I think that was just two months ago.

I've read that, too. And it makes sense. That's why I wouldn't recommend going with a larger diameter wheel. And not only the amount of weight but the position of the weight, too. If you have two different 20lb discs of the same diameter and one has most of the weight towards the center and the other has most of the weight towards the outside, the one with the weight in the center will be easier to spin up.

Going up an inch in diameter makes a bigger difference than a half inch in width. Since there's only 1.1lbs difference between the 205 and 225 Kumhos (22.4lb vs. 23.5lb), I think that's more than worth the cost for the added traction.
Most wheels I've looked at show 1lb or less different between wheels the same diameter with a half-inch difference in width. Some of them are exactly the same weight!

 

[LuckyL]

Just what I was hoping to hear, Lucky. You may have just helped me make up my mind.
And, No! I am not interested in your used tires, but thanks just the same. (hah)
Do I sound bitter? Nahhhhh...... (Bastards!!)

We had some serious rain here last week and the Avons performed very well. I guess I'll never really know how they would have compared to the Michelins but I've got no complaints.

I made a point of hitting the gas from stops and was very happy to not be spinning!

No buyers remorse at all.

Lucky L