My NA build to 200whp!

[mazdaspeed777]

Very ominous goal. I remember my old N/A goals back in 03/04 when I clipped 160whp. You are in for a VERY costly journey my friend. To break 150whp, count on 10.5+ compression, very aggressive set of custom cams, and some smart head-work. Stand-alone will be required without question. It took me to my third motor to realize that you are way better off going boost or KLZE swap. It all costs about the same.

If you ever want to do any research here are the old N/A guru's.

Installshield
Flat_black
TwilightProtege
SpicyMchaggis
Scorch70

Wow! Thanks for the info. You took out three engines with your NA build?(wow)

Yah, this will be a long process for me. Aspecially since I am married and just had are first child! I am dedicated to take care of them first. So funding the parts and preparing for the build will be the slowest part of the process

 

[mazdaspeed777]

Found the rods I will be getting:

http://www.slsperformance.com/slsp/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=655&idCategory=

What are the benefits of these rods being a little longer? and what will I need for them to work with my pistons, and aftermarket camshafts?

 

[Hambino]

Found the rods I will be getting:

http://www.slsperformance.com/slsp/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=655&idCategory=

What are the benefits of these rods being a little longer? and what will I need for them to work with my pistons, and aftermarket camshafts?

I would go with a brand name you know with craftsmanship you can count on. I would suggest Pauter personally. Pricey, but what isn't. Financially speaking, your first big investments need to be towards tuning. This is something you can put in place now and see the benefits from. Moreover, once you start add to your build, you can tune it. If you go bolt-on crazy like I did when I started out, you'll leave yourself broke and sans proper tuning. Dedicated N/A will absolutely demand stand-alone (or at least a piggyback with ignition control) As for options, I would personally stray from the MPi unit, the price is right, but unless you are next door neighbors with Kooldino (Speedcircuit), I'd recommend against it. I'd look into Microtech if I were you. Start putting these necessary (and large) costs up first to put yourself in a stable, progressive build position. This also really helps to see the upfront costs to make sure you can really afford it all. At the end of the day, to feasibly get yourself to those kind of N/A numbers, you are talking about 7-9k$. This of course is for the average joe with limited experience building motors and/or machining. Costs can always be reduced with some good old DIY. Things like head-work (which trust me, you are going to need) will require expensive and professional work.

Now also please bear in mind the consequences of breaking 160+whp N/A. Your daily driving street-ability will drop severely. Rough cams don't mesh well with traffic, I can tell you that now. Think about what you want to really get out of this project aside from the 200HP number. Is there a 1/4 mile number you are trying to reach? A lot of these things can be achieved with weight reduction and drive-train modifications. On another point, start to think about a strong Clutch/Flywheel combination. I'd personally suggest the Exedy Stage 1 and the Fidanza set-up (available from Protegegarage) It's what I run personally, and it is quite nice.

Start to think about the whole package and what you really want to accomplish. Think about other things you are going to want to do, IE suspension particularly and what these will cost. It's very easy to break 15k on the Protege and not even realize it. Budget yourself on your motor build and see what options are available to you. If you are talking about spending $5k on the motor, you'll only be talking around 160whp. Breaking 200 will require work that is well outside of any daily driver and/or anyone's budget. Installshield will be the first one to tell you that, his project was so unique due to his ability to utilize his school machining equipment. Of course it also helps that he's brilliant.

So after this long winded story, all I can say to you use good luck and build smart! Start writing a list of everything you need, their costs, and figure out what you are really comfortable spending. You don't want to wait a couple years to find out you could of saved money.

-Kyle (drive2)

 

[mazdaspeed777]

I would go with a brand name you know with craftsmanship you can count on. I would suggest Pauter personally. Pricey, but what isn't. Financially speaking, your first big investments need to be towards tuning. This is something you can put in place now and see the benefits from. Moreover, once you start add to your build, you can tune it. If you go bolt-on crazy like I did when I started out, you'll leave yourself broke and sans proper tuning. Dedicated N/A will absolutely demand stand-alone (or at least a piggyback with ignition control) As for options, I would personally stray from the MPi unit, the price is right, but unless you are next door neighbors with Kooldino (Speedcircuit), I'd recommend against it. I'd look into Microtech if I were you. Start putting these necessary (and large) costs up first to put yourself in a stable, progressive build position. This also really helps to see the upfront costs to make sure you can really afford it all. At the end of the day, to feasibly get yourself to those kind of N/A numbers, you are talking about 7-9k$. This of course is for the average joe with limited experience building motors and/or machining. Costs can always be reduced with some good old DIY. Things like head-work (which trust me, you are going to need) will require expensive and professional work.

Now also please bear in mind the consequences of breaking 160+whp N/A. Your daily driving street-ability will drop severely. Rough cams don't mesh well with traffic, I can tell you that now. Think about what you want to really get out of this project aside from the 200HP number. Is there a 1/4 mile number you are trying to reach? A lot of these things can be achieved with weight reduction and drive-train modifications. On another point, start to think about a strong Clutch/Flywheel combination. I'd personally suggest the Exedy Stage 1 and the Fidanza set-up (available from Protegegarage) It's what I run personally, and it is quite nice.

Start to think about the whole package and what you really want to accomplish. Think about other things you are going to want to do, IE suspension particularly and what these will cost. It's very easy to break 15k on the Protege and not even realize it. Budget yourself on your motor build and see what options are available to you. If you are talking about spending $5k on the motor, you'll only be talking around 160whp. Breaking 200 will require work that is well outside of any daily driver and/or anyone's budget. Installshield will be the first one to tell you that, his project was so unique due to his ability to utilize his school machining equipment. Of course it also helps that he's brilliant.

So after this long winded story, all I can say to you use good luck and build smart! Start writing a list of everything you need, their costs, and figure out what you are really comfortable spending. You don't want to wait a couple years to find out you could of saved money.

-Kyle (drive2)

Thanks for all the advise, it helps alot. Yah, the more I think about it the more I think my 200whp goal might be to ambitious of me. I am going to get Microtech standalone, port and pollish head(which I am going to do exhaust and intake ports my self to save some money), eibach valve springs, J-spec camshafts, adjustable camgears, and possible doing something different than my already port and polished intake manifold w/ VTCS removal. I will be combining all that with my J-spec 10:4 to 1 pistons, OBX UDP, and my existing performence mods and then I will see where that gets me. I will also be getting along the way new clutch and flywheel, lightweight pulleys, voltage stabalizer, and haltech coilpacks to help me a little more. So we will see what all that gets me. It will more than likely take me probably 3-4 years to get all those parts for I will be buying what I can here and there.

As far as suspension I already have a few good parts there:

Espiler springs
Progress 22mm rear sway bar(to be installed when my AWR endlinks get here!)
AWR endlinks front and back(waiting to get here, got shipped to the wrong address)
Corksport front strut tower bar
Ebay rear strut tower bar

I plan to eventually get either coilovers or tokico struts to complete my suspension package.

Thanks again! I appreciate everyones inpute. Dan

 

[jimmysuite]

did you get the pistons ok?? I was at the shop the other day and the stockers have a pretty deep bowl compared to these!

 

[Hambino]

Thanks for all the advise, it helps alot. Yah, the more I think about it the more I think my 200whp goal might be to ambitious of me. I am going to get Microtech standalone, port and pollish head(which I am going to do exhaust and intake ports my self to save some money), eibach valve springs, J-spec camshafts, adjustable camgears, and possible doing something different than my already port and polished intake manifold w/ VTCS removal. I will be combining all that with my J-spec 10:4 to 1 pistons, OBX UDP, and my existing performence mods and then I will see where that gets me. I will also be getting along the way new clutch and flywheel, lightweight pulleys, voltage stabalizer, and haltech coilpacks to help me a little more. So we will see what all that gets me. It will more than likely take me probably 3-4 years to get all those parts for I will be buying what I can here and there.

As far as suspension I already have a few good parts there:

Espiler springs
Progress 22mm rear sway bar(to be installed when my AWR endlinks get here!)
AWR endlinks front and back(waiting to get here, got shipped to the wrong address)
Corksport front strut tower bar
Ebay rear strut tower bar

I plan to eventually get either coilovers or tokico struts to complete my suspension package.

Thanks again! I appreciate everyones inpute. Dan

Sounds like a good start! One thing I would suggest is ditching the FSZE cams. They aren't going to give you the gains you are looking for. Look around the forum, someone might be selling a set of (REPAIRED) twiggy cams or you could look into getting a custom set ground. Things to note about that would be obviously the specific lift and duration required, but thats a whole different conversation.

As for the porting, have you ever experimented with this before? I'd search around a little bit before jumping into it. Honing is one thing, but look into how far you should go vs. your supporting mods. The intake manifold is a great start.

As for the tuning, the Microtech is certainly the way to go. I'm not too sure you'll actually need the coilpacks, our ignition system is much more powerful than you realize. I know a lot of guys pushing quite a bit of power with no supplemental ignition control or coilpacks. The Nology Hotwires set-up isn't a bad idea, every bit helps. Don't forget to get some new motor mounts!

 

[mazdaspeed777]

Sounds like a good start! One thing I would suggest is ditching the FSZE cams. They aren't going to give you the gains you are looking for. Look around the forum, someone might be selling a set of (REPAIRED) twiggy cams or you could look into getting a custom set ground. Things to note about that would be obviously the specific lift and duration required, but thats a whole different conversation.

As for the porting, have you ever experimented with this before? I'd search around a little bit before jumping into it. Honing is one thing, but look into how far you should go vs. your supporting mods. The intake manifold is a great start.

As for the tuning, the Microtech is certainly the way to go. I'm not too sure you'll actually need the coilpacks, our ignition system is much more powerful than you realize. I know a lot of guys pushing quite a bit of power with no supplemental ignition control or coilpacks. The Nology Hotwires set-up isn't a bad idea, every bit helps. Don't forget to get some new motor mounts!

Yah, I chose the Jspec cams because they fit my budget more. I will try to see if I can find a member willing to let go of there Twiggy cams. Any idea how much it would cost to get some camshafts custome ground and where I would get that done?

As far as the porting I did my intake manifold my self so I am fairly confident in my ability's there. I know the head is quite a bit more delicate and complicated job but I am doing alot of reading up on the process:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123690916

As for engine mounts I already have a Weapon R torque damper which takes alot of stress off the stock mounts. None of my stock engine mounts are torn yet but I plan on getting front and back street unit engine mounts.

 

[Hambino]

Yah, I chose the Jspec cams because they fit my budget more. I will try to see if I can find a member willing to let go of there Twiggy cams. Any idea how much it would cost to get some camshafts custome ground and where I would get that done?

As far as the porting I did my intake manifold my self so I am fairly confident in my ability's there. I know the head is quite a bit more delicate and complicated job but I am doing alot of reading up on the process:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123690916

As for engine mounts I already have a Weapon R torque damper which takes alot of stress off the stock mounts. None of my stock engine mounts are torn yet but I plan on getting front and back street unit engine mounts.

You'll have to look around a bit, but you can have cams ground for under a grand. Forget the SU mounts and go AWR. It's not about the stockers being torn, it's about cutting down wheel hop and drivetrain lash. The difference is substantial, especially with the back mount. I would suggest meeting someone that has them before though, the rear mount is pretty rough if you aren't ready for it.

 

[LordWorm]

if you are going to go for regrinds - there are really 2 options. Option one is to start with a blank from mazda, and option 2 is to get a billet blank made up. Billet blanks will cost more - that was the lions share of the cost in the twiggy cams, but the benefit is more base circle to work with so more lift can be achieved without shimming. If you have to shim, you add weight to the valve train which at high RPM could become a problem, requiring you to upgrade the valve train which may come at a higher expense than getting the cams ground from a custom billet.

 

[mazdaspeed777]

You'll have to look around a bit, but you can have cams ground for under a grand. Forget the SU mounts and go AWR. It's not about the stockers being torn, it's about cutting down wheel hop and drivetrain lash. The difference is substantial, especially with the back mount. I would suggest meeting someone that has them before though, the rear mount is pretty rough if you aren't ready for it.

Yah, I chose the SU mounts because the car is a daily driver and I drive 40 miles a day going back and forth to work every day so I don't know if I could stand the vibrations from a higher durometer. Plus like I said I have a Weapon R engine torque damper which helps wheel hop alot, and I think that matche with the SU mounts would work pretty offitiently. Correct me if I am wrong though.

 

[mazdaspeed777]

if you are going to go for regrinds - there are really 2 options. Option one is to start with a blank from mazda, and option 2 is to get a billet blank made up. Billet blanks will cost more - that was the lions share of the cost in the twiggy cams, but the benefit is more base circle to work with so more lift can be achieved without shimming. If you have to shim, you add weight to the valve train which at high RPM could become a problem, requiring you to upgrade the valve train which may come at a higher expense than getting the cams ground from a custom billet.

Where can I get billet blanks? and what diameter and length do they need to be??

 

[LordWorm]

Where can I get billet blanks? and what diameter and length do they need to be??

AWR used to sell mazda blanks

billet blanks need to be made by a machine shop, you need to give them an existing cam shaft to get the measurements off, and they make the base circle as big or as small as they need for the cam profile you select.

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

would need to be heat treated after.

 

[LordWorm]

would need to be heat treated after.

after the grind?
not sure...

but it'd be included in the service if it did....

the reason the from-scratch billet cams need it is they start with unhardened steel.... which needs to be straightened, and induction hardened and so forth once completed...
a regrind might not need that.
talk to some cam shops and find out

 

[mazdaspeed777]

AWR used to sell mazda blanks

billet blanks need to be made by a machine shop, you need to give them an existing cam shaft to get the measurements off, and they make the base circle as big or as small as they need for the cam profile you select.

Thanks, I will look around for some machine shops in my area that might do this for me. Dan

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

Well as an option for myself, I was thinkin having my shop make some billet shafts then send them to a Cam shop to have the desired profile ground. But like you said talk to a Cams shop to see what is needed for the process.

 

[LordWorm]

Well as an option for myself, I was thinkin having my shop make some billet shafts then send them to a Cam shop to have the desired profile ground. But like you said talk to a Cams shop to see what is needed for the process.

the cam billets should be made by a specialist machinist, definantly speak to an expert cam shop about your requirements before getting your wallet out

 

[mazdaspeed777]

I was just thinking today would it be possible to modify the stock rods by welding another piece in the grooves in the center to strengthen them? I am thinking that would probably through off there balance huh?

 

[LordWorm]

I was just thinking today would it be possible to modify the stock rods by welding another piece in the grooves in the center to strengthen them? I am thinking that would probably through off there balance huh?

not sure how much additional strength you'd gain....or whether you'd gain any strength at all in reality.

if you are worried about rod strength, go straight to after market rods, designed to be direct OEM replacement rods (so they work with your pistons)

 

[StealthWyvern]

not sure how much additional strength you'd gain....or whether you'd gain any strength at all in reality.

if you are worried about rod strength, go straight to after market rods, designed to be direct OEM replacement rods (so they work with your pistons)

yeah really... i wounder if you would have to worry about the welds breakign off on a crappy weld job and becomign projectiles in yoru engine!