It's not just about drivers either, every car is different. Protege GTs are all supposed to have 125hp, but why did my car run a 16.3, and Mike Moss ran a 16.9, and my ex who also had a GT(which I drove), got 17.2. Only mod to my car was a muffler. I put 111whp down with that too. that's only a 13% drivetrain loss if you did the math. I'd like to say my car was just plain built better............turned out I somehow had 6 degrees more ignition advance than stock.....
MSP Vs MSM
- Thread starter 3.5titanuimSD
- Start date
I posted this in another thread, but after reviewing all of my search results (yes, thats right, I used the search feature) I feel it makes more sense posted here. I still have yet to read any of the post in this thread. So, I'm guessing that most of my questions have already been answered.
I am kinda toying with the idea of trading my MSP in on a MSM! I wonder what are the advantages/disadvantages to each car and would there really be a driving difference between the two, which would justify the cost increase.
I wonder what kind of reply's this will get (dark) (protest) (hand) (pissed) (wedge) (stooges) (braindead (rant) (shocked) (smash) (no) (argh) (monkey) (screwy) (chair)
I am kinda toying with the idea of trading my MSP in on a MSM! I wonder what are the advantages/disadvantages to each car and would there really be a driving difference between the two, which would justify the cost increase.
I wonder what kind of reply's this will get (dark) (protest) (hand) (pissed) (wedge) (stooges) (braindead (rant) (shocked) (smash) (no) (argh) (monkey) (screwy) (chair)
redwagon02
Member
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- '08 F150 FX2 screw - '06 G35 coupe - '06 GSXR600
RWD = happiness. Not to mention drifting.
Really, no matter what the handling, hp, braking or other numbers suggest compared to any other car, this is the most fun car to drive.
Really, no matter what the handling, hp, braking or other numbers suggest compared to any other car, this is the most fun car to drive.
bruce95fmla
Member
not to mention the BP has a stronger bottom end and could hold as much boost as that turbo could put out.redwagon02 said:
soooo you know what that means. (boom07)
daperspeed
Member
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- 03.5 Laser Blue Mica Mazdaspeed
Aim higher than a MSM for a trade. If your gonna lose money at least lose it on something worth it...like a EVO or something.
I would not be losing money since I purchased my speed for real real cheap. I work for a very large auto finace company and the dealer gave me a really good deal.daperspeed said:
I will not be trading, since it does not make since to trade out of the MSP and gain such an increase in payment. (freak)
I know the MSP is not the best 4-door sports car, but I never expected it to be, since I was paying such a lower price compared to the others. At the time of purchase I could not even touch an SRT-4 for under 25k. I was first not going to pay over MSRP for any car.
I trust my brother's (Yashooa) judgment and he stated the MSM is a very good car, but spend a few more grand and get the STI. He stated the EVO was good, but that it is a slightly watered down version, compared to what others are getting outside of the US.
In the end he said why trade and increase my payments when I am looking at building a really nice house in the next few years. He said it's not about the cars we drive, it's about the badass custom built houses our cousin in going to build for us on a 36 hole, 3000 acre, private golf course.
daperspeed
Member
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- 03.5 Laser Blue Mica Mazdaspeed
Bottom line is the MSM is outclassed in its price range(sans the RX-8 which is a waste of money IMHO). Your right the MSP is not the best 4 door sports car...but at its price that we 03.5 owners got them for...they ARE PRETTY DAMN GOOD. The statistics on this car are sick for the price.
What the hell's wrong with you? The MS MX5 is awesome. Why don't you realize Mazda is all about the chassis, not straights. Scroll up and look and the numbers this car puts down in handling. This is one of the best handling cars ever to come off a factory floor. Period.daperspeed said:
Now get over it, and let the man enjoy is sweet ride....
daperspeed
Member
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- 03.5 Laser Blue Mica Mazdaspeed
LOL...X-cuse me?!? Relax buddy...its the internetGen1GT said:
I mean the MSM is alright. You dont seem to understand the point I was making. Read carefully. What I meant is that FOR THE PRICE there are superior performance vehicles on the market. Im not going to list them...its common knowledge. Oh and about Mazda...duh..no s***..I got the MSP which IS ALL ABOUT THE CHASSIS!! I know Mazdas strengths but the other cars Im refering to offer as good of a chasis as the MSM and an engine with a semblance of balls.Gen1GT said:
The only Mazda (of recent memory) I like is the MSP...for the price its really good and I like the BJ chasis personally. The others today are weaksauce and/or rebadged Fords...ugh
Those are big words...the handling statistics Ive seen of the MSM are quite similar to the MSP..are you saying the MSP also deserves that recognition. Im an MSP owner and a realist and wont say that...Gen1GT said:
Thats all
no, because MSP is driving the wrong wheels :Xdaperspeed said:Those are big words...the handling statistics Ive seen of the MSM are quite similar to the MSP..are you saying the MSP also deserves that recognition. Im an MSP owner and a realist and wont say that...
Thats all
BinaryRotary
Member
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- 03 MSP, 85 RX-7 GS, 90 RX-7 TII
WERD!ZoomZoomH said:
Orthonormal
Member
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- 1999 Miata sport
I think you're going to have to, because I can't think of any. The S2000 costs $5000 more, the RX-8 costs $2000 more and probably doesn't handle as well, the MR2 costs $2000 less but has a softer suspension, less power, and less torque.daperspeed said:
Skidpad and slalom stats are not reliable indicators of how a car handles. You really have to drive the car to know.how it handles. The MINI and Porsche 911 both have some of the best slalom numbers posted by Road & Track...do you think that they handle the same?
daperspeed
Member
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- 03.5 Laser Blue Mica Mazdaspeed
Orthonormal said:
The RX-8 is a toad...I never even considered it as competitive for its price...its 0-60 is the same as a RSX...for 29-30K. What a value. Well the S2K is a better car overall and has better resale than a Mazda..no doubt so that 5K diff is worthit. Performance wise its superior to a MSM. MR2..bleh. You listed those b/c they are roadsters but Im talking performance cars regardless of bodystyle. An EVO RS is about 25K a STi can be had for 29K if you negotiate well. Those cars outclass a MSM. Also the MSM has a stock Miata engine like the MSP. Id take a MSP or SRT-4 before a Miata in terms of value. When you pass 25K in my mind you enter a new level of expected performance these days.
No actually skidpad and slalom can tell you how you expect a car to perform on the street. For instance when I make lane changes in the MSP its stability and transition correlate to its 70+ MPH slalom test results. A Ford Crown Victoria wont feel like this under fast input lane changes etc..and prolly has a 50 MPH slalom or something..yes its relevant. Skidpad as you know is indicitive to a good extent on the tire width and characteristic..so I agree its not indicative a great deal on handling feel and driver confidence. But the skidpad value will tell you how much grip you can expect on say a circular freeway onramp/offramp or in the twisties before the tire loses traction.Orthonormal said:
Well about the Mini and the Porsche comparison..thats moot b/c handling is subjective and is indicative of the confidence the vehicle gives the driver. The Porsche is RWD so doesnt have the inherent FWD limitation that FWD cars even the best such as MSP, ITR, Mini. But handling is subjective and if I do remember correctly..the same publication noted that they felt equally confident taking corners in their test MP3 as the Elise in their article...so in there we see ultimately handling is a matter of how confident the driver feels in pushing the vehicle to its engineered limitations.
Off subject a little , but oh well! I want to talk about the mini. I was looking at them just for fun on the internet. I see that you can can get an Cooper S with an upgraded handling package and upgrade the engine, including a larger supercharger. It seems to be a real fun car. Any thoughts on the Mini S?
daperspeed said:
What make YOUR opinion gospel? The RX8 is a better looking car than anything else out there first of all. And you talk as though the ony important thing about a car is quickness. There are faster and better handling cars out there than an SL500, but that doesn't make it any less desirable.
I'll take the RX8 over anything else in it's class because it's unique, quick, and has the best handling. Not impressed? Wait for the Mazdaspeed RX8. In the mean time, you're opinion is just that, an opinion. So don't make other people's opinion seem worthless.....
Orthonormal
Member
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- 1999 Miata sport
The RSX is front wheel drive and handles like a cow. The other cars I listed because they are rear wheel drive sport cars, not because they are convertibles (the RX-8 isn't). If you can get an Evo for $25k (which is doubtful, since the invoice on a no-option Evo RS is $26k), then you've found a worthy competitor. But I don't think that it's obviously a better car. The Evo wins on power and number of seats, but the Miata wins on handling and convertible top.
As for the argument that the S2000 is more expensive, but it's worth it...yes, I agree! But it's still more expensive, so it's not in the same category. Sure, I personally would go for an S2000 over an MSM, but I'd also never get an Evo RS when the Evo MR is coming soon...more expensive cars, and worth the price difference to some, but not in the same price category that we're talking about.
Defining handling is a tricky business. First you defined handling as the slalom and skidpad numbers. You defended that by claiming that they predict the behavior in everyday situations like lane changes. I disagree with that, too. Those specs simply do not reflect how a car responds to a complex series of inputs or how easy it is to control. In a slalom, you know exactly the path you are going to take, and the inputs are very regular and rhythmic. On the skidpad, you are going around a constant radius, smooth, flat, circle at a constant speed with no acceleration or deceleration.
Then you suggested a subjective definition: how comfortable the driver feels when the car is near its limits. I would propose an alternate subjective definition: how easy the car is to control at its limits. It's a subtle difference, but my emphasis is on "fun" rather than "safety". And being subjective, the results of both definitions will vary from driver to driver. Some will feel more comfortable in a car that will never oversteer, or doesn't lean at all; others like a car that can be steered with the throttle and has a nice progressive controllable oversteer.
Getting back to a more objective way to define handling (since the word is sometimes used to indicate what a car can accomplish and sometimes to indicate how it feels to drive): autocross performance, or as mentioned in your profile, "in da twistiez". It's funny how the non-turbo Miata is the top dog in a faster autocross class than the Mazdaspeed Protege, despite having much poorer acceleration and lower power. There must be something else at work there, and that something else is what I call "handling".
As for the argument that the S2000 is more expensive, but it's worth it...yes, I agree! But it's still more expensive, so it's not in the same category. Sure, I personally would go for an S2000 over an MSM, but I'd also never get an Evo RS when the Evo MR is coming soon...more expensive cars, and worth the price difference to some, but not in the same price category that we're talking about.
Defining handling is a tricky business. First you defined handling as the slalom and skidpad numbers. You defended that by claiming that they predict the behavior in everyday situations like lane changes. I disagree with that, too. Those specs simply do not reflect how a car responds to a complex series of inputs or how easy it is to control. In a slalom, you know exactly the path you are going to take, and the inputs are very regular and rhythmic. On the skidpad, you are going around a constant radius, smooth, flat, circle at a constant speed with no acceleration or deceleration.
Then you suggested a subjective definition: how comfortable the driver feels when the car is near its limits. I would propose an alternate subjective definition: how easy the car is to control at its limits. It's a subtle difference, but my emphasis is on "fun" rather than "safety". And being subjective, the results of both definitions will vary from driver to driver. Some will feel more comfortable in a car that will never oversteer, or doesn't lean at all; others like a car that can be steered with the throttle and has a nice progressive controllable oversteer.
Getting back to a more objective way to define handling (since the word is sometimes used to indicate what a car can accomplish and sometimes to indicate how it feels to drive): autocross performance, or as mentioned in your profile, "in da twistiez". It's funny how the non-turbo Miata is the top dog in a faster autocross class than the Mazdaspeed Protege, despite having much poorer acceleration and lower power. There must be something else at work there, and that something else is what I call "handling".
daperspeed
Member
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- 03.5 Laser Blue Mica Mazdaspeed
Nope. The EVO IS one of the top few best overall performance vehicle to come from Japan. Many say IT IS the best. Period. Ive seen this opinion from top journalists and engineers. A Miata with a retuned suspension and T25 turbo slapped onto a stock motor is not even in the same league...especially for modability. And no a Miata doesnt have better handling than a EVO.
Well I must still insist that handling stats are indicative of the real world. It doesnt matter if a slalom test is in a controlled situation. Tests whether for a vehicle, toaster or academic or whatever must be in a controlled environ. Being in a controlled environ doesnt lessen the assumptions to be made. Many decisions are assumptions are made on a "controlled" testing environ...thats reality. Yeah it doesnt tell you "exactly" how a given vehicle will react under complex inputs, lane changes, accel/decel etc but it gives a good idea of a cars overall abilities and thats good enough for me. I sure as hell would rather drive a car thru "twisteez" in a life or death situation, that has a .95 skidpad and slaloms as 70+ mph than a minivan for example. You get what Im saying?
I never compared a MSP to a MSM. Is a Miata in a higher Solo2 class? I didnt know. I just pointed out that a MSP is a better value than a MSM...thats my opinion and a lot of others I know especially when on my last trip to the dealer I saw a MSM with a 30K sticker. Thats absurd for a Miata...especially with what else is out there.
The reason a Miata does so well in auto-x is not only handling but the weight and simple small size and tossibility of the car. All these variables create the summation of what we would call "handling". Yeah its RWD, its small, its tossable, and has a pretty rigid chasis..and well tunded suspension...so yeah its good at autocross.
But Id take my chances in a MSP or ITR on a run thru the "twisteez" (canyons, sweeping turns, hairpins etc) against a Miata. RWD isnt the end all be all of handling. Just ask a Camaro.
Well I must still insist that handling stats are indicative of the real world. It doesnt matter if a slalom test is in a controlled situation. Tests whether for a vehicle, toaster or academic or whatever must be in a controlled environ. Being in a controlled environ doesnt lessen the assumptions to be made. Many decisions are assumptions are made on a "controlled" testing environ...thats reality. Yeah it doesnt tell you "exactly" how a given vehicle will react under complex inputs, lane changes, accel/decel etc but it gives a good idea of a cars overall abilities and thats good enough for me. I sure as hell would rather drive a car thru "twisteez" in a life or death situation, that has a .95 skidpad and slaloms as 70+ mph than a minivan for example. You get what Im saying?
I never compared a MSP to a MSM. Is a Miata in a higher Solo2 class? I didnt know. I just pointed out that a MSP is a better value than a MSM...thats my opinion and a lot of others I know especially when on my last trip to the dealer I saw a MSM with a 30K sticker. Thats absurd for a Miata...especially with what else is out there.
The reason a Miata does so well in auto-x is not only handling but the weight and simple small size and tossibility of the car. All these variables create the summation of what we would call "handling". Yeah its RWD, its small, its tossable, and has a pretty rigid chasis..and well tunded suspension...so yeah its good at autocross.
But Id take my chances in a MSP or ITR on a run thru the "twisteez" (canyons, sweeping turns, hairpins etc) against a Miata. RWD isnt the end all be all of handling. Just ask a Camaro.
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