MSP compared to aftermarket turbos

[mesterha]

I'm trying to decide between buying a Nissan SE-R and a Protege.

If I buy a Protege, I'd like to get an ES and put on a turbo. I know there are some aftermarket turbos but is Mazda going to release the MSP turbo as a kit. How would this compare to the aftermarket kits. Would it include a warranty?

I don't know alot about turbos, but the Protege aftermarket kits I've looked at seem to have problems with engine management. Is someone working on cracking the Protege ECU. What about the MSP ECU. Can it be used for an aftermarket turbos? I don't want alot of power, but I'd feel better with decent engine management.

I assume the current kits don't include decent engine management because it's too expensive, but there is a 200whp kit for the SE-R (http://www.forcedinductionracing.com) that costs $2855 and includes Greddy Emanage. Is this SE-R kit just a good deal?

Thanks,
Chris

 

[70]

Well, first off as of now, there are no plans for Mazdato sell the MSP turbo stuff. Right now those parts are still VIN + exchange...

As far as using the MSP ECU to help run an aftermarket turbo kit, it is possible. You'll want to run the same injectors from the MSP and you should be alright as long as you keep the boost under 10 psi. However, no one has tested this theory yet and getting your hands on just an ECU from an MSP is going to be tough.

FM Protege and Terry (spoolin') are both working on dealing with the ECU. Fm has the "device" which takes care of partial throttle on boost. Full throttle is the big problem, that is why piggy backs won't work (such as the E-Manage). FM is working on the ECU issues their way.

Terry has gone the stand alone way with his Microtech option. He is still in the testing phase with this. Be sure that the board will be some of the first ones to know how it works out with both Terry and FM.

Personally, I think the Sentra (SE-R or Spec V) isn't the best platform for performance. Yes they can make decent power but I don't feel comfortable with the F/I options because the block is an open deck design.

For me, the 3rd gen Protege offers a much better starting point for performance both handling and, once ECU issues are solved, for power. But the last part of this is of course MHO...

 

[spoolinmp3]

For me, the 3rd gen Protege offers a much better starting point for performance both handling and, once ECU issues are solved, for power. But the last part of this is of course MHO...

Werd
mesterha why dont you just buy the MSP vs the Ex and save your self alot of trouble?

 

[dolphin]

I can not address the question about the MazdaSpeed ECU. You need to better define what you want out of the car. In any event, I would start with the 3rd gen Protege since it is a more solid and better handiling chassis.

If you are looking for a little more thrust, then either set up should work for you. FM puts updates on their web page on changes/updates for their different turbo systems. In addition, they offer an update option for the maps and such like that go with their turbo fuel management systems. I am sure that Spooling does/will do something similar. My leading is towards the FM setup since I am more interested in autocrossing and overall street use, they have been around for quite a while and they are closer to me. That is just my opinion.

 

[mesterha]

If I got a SE-R, I probably wouldn't get F/I. The new 2.5 engine has problems such as a low rev limit and oil burning. Still it should be pretty easy to get 160-170 whp without F/I.

As for buying an MSP, by the time I'm ready to buy they will all be gone. Plus, with the markup, they are pretty expensive. I figure, that there will be a big rebate on the EX this summer. I can probably get one for $13,000. The MSP would be at least $21,000. Still, with all the extras, the MSP might be worth the cash... This leads back to the SE-R which I can probably get for around $16,000.

As for what I want out of the car, I want a car that is fun to drive, but I'm not looking to mod the hell out of it. I currently have an unmodified 89 Integra LS. I want a good looking and reliable car that is a step up in handling and power. I think the SE-R fits this bill, but the ES is a little short on the power, and the MSP is too expensive. I've never raced before, but it's something I'll look into once I get the car. Currently, I rate the cars as follows:

Looks: SE-R, ES
Handling: ES, SE-R
Power: SE-R, ES
Reliability: ES, SE-R
Cost: ES, SE-R

Last, a question for my education. What is the difference between stand alone and piggyback engine management? Also, why are the ECUs so hard to crack. Is it just a question of reverse engineering or does some type of encryption need to be broken. In other words, can someone explain how the ECU works with an emphasis on the encryption.

I have some friends who do research in encryption, so I'm curious how they could help. Also, if the encryption problem is fairly abstract, I wonder if it's possible to parallelize the problem. It would be great if all the board members could have their computers collectively churn out a solution.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Kooldino]

Bah, the ES is way sweeter looking than the SE-R! ;-)

Stand alone engine management has complete control over the engine. Piggyback still works off of the stock ECU and is still limited by what the stock ECU says...it can just suggest different things. (AFAIK)

Here's what you gotta do...add up the total cost of the car "when it's all done"...

ES=$13K+$3K turbo kit=$16K
SE-R=$16K+$2K performance mods=$18K

kinda like that. But you gotta add in what each car lacks and what you want to put into it.

 

[Keith@FP]

FM Protege and Terry (spoolin') are both working on dealing with the ECU. Fm has the "device" which takes care of partial throttle on boost. Full throttle is the big problem, that is why piggy backs won't work (such as the E-Manage). FM is working on the ECU issues their way.

Not quite correct. The "device" (let's call it a boost-referenced O2 signal clamp) prevents the stock ECU from seeing the extra fuel you're dumping in - as it will then pull that fuel right back out. It makes no difference how you're adding that fuel, be it extra injectors, a modified injector signal or raised fuel pressure. Under high load situations the stock ECU ignores the O2 sensor readings so there's no problem with that. However, ignition timing is unaddressed.

There are five ways to deal with the ECU in your car.

1) Modify the code of the ECU itself.
This is not easy. First you need to get the code. Then you need to reverse engineer it. Then you need to modify it. It's very difficult. Even Mazda got it wrong with the MSP the first time - all the cars had to be reflashed at the docks because of cold running problems. Whoops. It's easier with some ECUs than others. With the Protege, it's possible but difficult.

Now the others, in increasing order of difficulty.

2) Spoof the ECU
This is what we're doing currently. It involves manipulating the signals to the ECU to hide what you're doing with other devices, or to get it to change things yourself. The notorious "eBay resistor" trick is included here along with more legitimate techniques such as MSDs and our clamp setup.

3) Run a piggyback ECU
This is a supplementary ECU that takes the signals from the stock computer, massages them, and passes them along. It often controls extra injectors as well. The stock ECU handles idle, hotel loads (HVAC, idle compensation, etc) and the piggyback only joins the party under boost. Without some spoofing of the sensors, the stock ECU can sometimes compensate for what the piggyback is doing. Since the stock setup is still in place, you never have total control.

4) Run a parallel ECU
In this case, you take control of the fuel and timing away from the stock ECU completely. It does, however, get to take care of everything else in the car. You'll have to tune idle, cold start and general off-boost driveabilty. Typically, a number of new sensors will need to be installed.

5) Replace the stock ECU (standalone)
The most powerful and the most difficult. Take the stock ECU out and replace it with another. ECUs are very complex beasts, handling a number of complex systems. This is the technique we use on the 1990-97 Miatas and it's hard to get right. It can involve frightening rewiring if the standalone is not designed as a plug-in version using the stock sensors.

Keith

 

[Lawerence]

wow both your guys kits for the FS is great...
Now what can we do with the Mazdaspeed? NEED MORE POWER!!!

 

[Keith@FP]

I'd start by replacing the intercooler with one that's sized a little better. The design of the one in the MSP is good for about 150 hp. I'd also get the intercooler pipes refabricated in steel as the plastic ones are very inefficient (another "whoops!" from Mazda when they found that out).

Then I'd pull off the tiny T25 and put on a larger turbo

Keith

 

[Lawerence]

hrm, well thats what I was thinking to start; but I'd like to be in the 250whp ballpark if possible...
again im new to the FS motor so I dont know the capabilities.
I'd assume it can hold 260-275whp with the stock pstons and rods? or would forged internals be needed?

 

[Lawerence]

I assume the current kits don't include decent engine management because it's too expensive, but there is a 200whp kit for the SE-R (http://www.forcedinductionracing.com) that costs $2855 and includes Greddy Emanage. Is this SE-R kit just a good deal?

Thanks,
Chris

One thing to think about is that he travis (owner ofr FIR) has the kit done, but has yet to install it on a car. I believe he is doing so and will be finished sometime in the next few months. He is a great guy really smart. But I wouldnt want to be the first pesron with a turbo qr25 as those engines have some issues.
Im not shure what a turbo ES would run, but SERs run much faster stock so you might not want a turbo. And 2.5l is alot of playroom for an N/A 4 banger.

 

[spoolinmp3]

Besides adding the intercooler Lawrence there are a couple more things that can be done. Check out the MSP section on the thread MSP upgrade parts.

You MSP guys have it made, an ecu that was meant for F/I that has all timing and fuel parameters in safe levels.

You can start of by making a cold air intake, increasing the wimpy down pipe to 2.5 inches. Replacing the ehaust pipes to 2.5 inch, efficient fron mount with steel or aluminum piping like kieth stated, upgraded BOV, inline fuel pump and some slightly bigger injectors that will not affect idle ect.

You will have a serious contender and can safley run 9psi. I think with that turbo you will be limited to about 190-200whp which is almost 230 to the crank....not bad for a little car.
Switching out the turbo to a bigger unit should get you in the 225 whp range I am guessing.

 

[mesterha]

Thanks for the ECU tutorial Keith. I guess when someone talks about cracking the ECU, they are talking about option 1 which just replaces the necessary ROMs such as the fuel/air map. However, the manufactures didn't like this so they started encrypting the data on these ROMS to make it difficult to reprogram.

As for my decision, I'm a cheap bastard, so if there is a big rebate on the ES, I'll probably get it. After I've had the car for a while, I'll check on the turbo...

Thanks everyone for all the information.

Chris

 

[Keith@FP]

No, it's not a matter of encryption. It's a matter of looking at a compiled program. Tell me how to get my hands on the source code for Windows

The MSP has a cutout at 10 psi of boost, BTW.

Keith

 

[chdesign]

The stock protege rods in the FS will buckle appartently at 225whp

 

[spoolinmp3]

The stock protege rods in the FS will buckle appartently at 225whp

We shall see. I have been at this power level for some time know. We just have to know how reliable it can run for extended periods of time.

 

[Kooldino]

No, it's not a matter of encryption. It's a matter of looking at a compiled program. Tell me how to get my hands on the source code for Windows
Keith

Sure. Just get a disassembler.

 

[Nasa_Racers]

2) Spoof the ECU
This is what we're doing currently. It involves manipulating the signals to the ECU to hide what you're doing with other devices, or to get it to change things yourself. The notorious "eBay resistor" trick is included here along with more legitimate techniques such as MSDs and our clamp setup.

i'm working on building one for myself with a shop close to me (i really wanna learn as much as i can to help problem solve and improve the system in the future)...it'll use a t3 turbonetics and i'm figuring just running 6psi for the time being...i was going to look into an e-manage system or even something like a hal-tech stand alone but there's not enough knowledge out there yet for these options

so i'm going to do either an eic or fmu with voltage clamp similar to your system...i'll probably invest in a j&s safeguard system for better protection...then later in the future when a p&p standalone exists invest in that

 

[70]

There is enough knowledge concering the E-Manage and or Apex'i S-AFC...Enough to know they don't work with the ECU.

Unfortunately it looks like for now, the only method of dealing with the stock ECU for all boost levels and throttle levels is some form of stand alone set up.

 

[LinuxRacr]

I may be trying the J&S Safegaurd myself soon. We'll see.