MS6 Total Loss of Power?

[BlkZoomZoom]

I see a dyno run with a dip at the upper end of the graph for one run. Are you 100% sure that it was caused by the ect reading 200*f? Most of todays cars run normally at 200-220 degrees. It seems weird that they would cut timing when the car is at normal operating temperature.

 

[BlkZoomZoom]

You know what, I will find out for myself tommorow if timing is dropped by ect temp reaching 200*. I have the Ms6 sitting in my bay and the wds ready to go anyways. I will test drive it tommorow before work starts and datalogg the ect, Iat, and spark advance. You may be right, it just doesn't sound right to me.

 

[FX-MAN]

I work in software development... Because this problem goes away when you turn the car off for a while, could this just be an ECU code bug that requires reset to resolve.... (I work in software development, when you have a problem that goes away on a reboot, it means the code went down a path that there was no way back from, ie. entered a state that didn't have a path back to the default state). To me, since the problem goes away when the car is off for a while, could that be due to ECU reset?

What if there was a rare case, where the engine should temporarily cut power (like the engine knock sensor), and the driver would only feel a slight hiccup if the software were normal (that happens from time to time for different reasons), but instead, the software ends up not resetting to it's default state, and it just keeps opening the wastegate until the ECU is reset?

 

[BlkZoomZoom]

Considering pretty much everything is monitiored I highly doubt it. If the wastegate solenoid sticks open, the pcm knows about it. As of now, the only thing I know of that will open the wastegate indefenitly is the octane thing. There are probably others, I just don't know what they are at this time. I'm hoping I get alittle time to play around tommorow morning to monitior different things. I will tell you this, I am not going to spend the time that I did on my Msp.

 

[FX-MAN]

Considering pretty much everything is monitiored I highly doubt it. If the wastegate solenoid sticks open, the pcm knows about it. As of now, the only thing I know of that will open the wastegate indefenitly is the octane thing. There are probably others, I just don't know what they are at this time. I'm hoping I get alittle time to play around tommorow morning to monitior different things. I will tell you this, I am not going to spend the time that I did on my Msp.

What if there was a case (like say.. after the car has 4000kms on it like mine) when the fuel would appear to be less high grade just due to having mileage on the car? Maybe they just made that octane sesor too sensitive. From the debates in that thread, it sounds like determining the octane is not even close to an exact science.

If the octane sensor throws the switch, does the ECU need to be reset to unthrow it? Or is that something that will turn on and off as you drive? It doesn't make sense that the problem would just happen once, keep doing it until you shut the car off for a while, and then without changing a thing, be fine the next time you drive (and not happen again for a while... it's been 3 days now and my car has been fine.. no fill-ups, not changing a thing). To me that means faulty sensor and/or faulty ECU software. I don't think it could be a heat thing, because as we said.. we were not pushing the cars when they did this, and it wasn't after the car had been run for a while, this was immediately after starting the car. Could it be some sensor just failing to turn ON when you start the car?

 

[Newf]

Amazing, Mazda has learned nothing.

 

[BlkZoomZoom]

What if there was a case (like say.. after the car has 4000kms on it like mine) when the fuel would appear to be less high grade just due to having mileage on the car? Maybe they just made that octane sesor too sensitive. From the debates in that thread, it sounds like determining the octane is not even close to an exact science.

If the octane sensor throws the switch, does the ECU need to be reset to unthrow it? Or is that something that will turn on and off as you drive? It doesn't make sense that the problem would just happen once, keep doing it until you shut the car off for a while, and then without changing a thing, be fine the next time you drive (and not happen again for a while... it's been 3 days now and my car has been fine.. no fill-ups, not changing a thing). To me that means faulty sensor and/or faulty ECU software. I don't think it could be a heat thing, because as we said.. we were not pushing the cars when they did this, and it wasn't after the car had been run for a while, this was immediately after starting the car. Could it be some sensor just failing to turn ON when you start the car?

The way that it is sensed, that can never happen. It is not a switch, it is a calculation from many different sensors. It only does it in real time, it doesn't see lower octane gas then continue to open the wastegate at 4k everytime after that. It only does it when needed.
I cannot answer your questions without seeing the car and experiencing what you are talking about. I do however, find it very funny that you immediately dismiss the thought of bad gas. It has to be the vehicles fault, there isn't a forum to go and b**** and discuss gas companies.

 

[Da 6]

The gas isn't as regulated as people think

 

[FX-MAN]

Actually, I never said it "can't" be the fuel, I just know I put 94 in there.. I didn't dismiss it as the car's fault (I don't think you should take it personally, but I don't feel a car should loose 100hp due to "slightly bad gas").

update: I took the car in today. They said they found nothing wrong, but think it could be 2 things in combination 1. The ecu is hypersensitive to lower grade fuels (more than it should be) if that is the case, they expect that mazda will send them a flash for the ecu if more people officially report the non-fuel related issue (they said that they get new ECU programming all the time from Mazda to solve small issues that pop up.. no code is perfect, there are always bugs, especially with a new model). The mazda dealership says that also, "bad gas has been going around our area", and that they saw a 6i this week with some serious bad gas-related problems last week.

The ECU has not "thrown a code" so they have no way of knowing what is wrong unless I can bring the car to them while it's doing it (and even then, they doubt they could figure it out, since the ECU is not telling them WHY it's doing it). They said next time it happens, drive straight there, and don't turn the car off. Let them drive it while it's having the issue. So I will do that if it happens again.

It really could be a bad batch of 94 from chevron, or bad gas from the station I filled up at the week before (even though I put in the correct grade). Could be hypersensitive ECU programming, or a bug where something should open the wastegate briefly, but the ecu does not reset properly afterwards (this would be a fequent issue in software development, so I can see how that could happen, even if the tech guys on this board don't think it should be possible, whatever signal the ECU throws to tell the wastegate to open, could hypothetically get stuck in a code loop and continuously get sent.. in theory it's possible, and would easily explain why the problem would go away after you shut the car off). Whatever it is, the more people who report it, the faster Mazda might have a fix, so if you have this issue, report it to your dealership service department and ask them to report it to Mazda.

anyway, it's not "bitching" when a $40,000 car suddenly starts acting like a $5,000 car. I think it's a perfectly legitimate thing to be unhappy about. I am not paying for an 89 civic, and I don't like it when my car acts like one.

 

[Newf]

Sounds like you've been fed a big bucket of bulls***. In other words, they have no idea.

On another note, you are not "bitching", and you are certainly allowed to be upset after 40grand and problems already, and anyone that thinks otherwise is simply wrong.

 

[maltodextrin]

Don't they test these cars before releasing them to the public, s*** wtf???

 

[BlkZoomZoom]

Wow. You guys are incredible.
No the pcm won't just keep sending the signal to open the wastegate without it meaning to. If it did there would be a fault code since ODB2 monitiors everything so closely.
It may very well be that the Pcm monitiors everything too closely and that is why it has happened a couple of times. There may be a re-flash a few months down the road, who knows, Mazda hasn't made a car in a few years that they haven't had to tweak the pcm programming at least once down the road.

Personally I would like to know how much time elapses after you fill the tank up that the problems start. If it happens again.

 

[terbow]

Ive had this on my msp too. just an fyi. I never really looked into it tho. It usually happends getting on the highway, the car isnt hot and at like 4k it feels like the clutch is slipping but the rpms are steady (ie not dropping or raising erratically). Im interested in seeing what you guys come up with. I never looked at my boost gauge when it happends. Now i cant get to 4k cause i fuel cut lol but if it happends again ill look.

 

[Rainman]

unless he is just checking cels and other misc info Your obd II scaner is Can Bus correct ?

Nope...damn. Just checked it out here. If you check the list of cars that are not compliant, nearly every 2005 Mazda model is included. By extension, I assume that the 2006 MS6 is also the same.

Arrrggghhhhh.

R

 

[FX-MAN]

Another Update: I got a call from the dealership yesterday, They talked with Mazda Canada, and they want them to "check something". So I am taking it back in next week sometime.

I love the talking-down attitude though, first I was "bitching", now I just don't know my job (software development).... just so you know, a software command loop will not throw an assert code unless it is specifically programmed to throw an assert code for that specific loop, which would require an incrementing variable placed within the code that is updated when that insance of the command loop happens (everywhere in code that would call the command would need this check). You need to understand that software will only throw errors when it is TOLD to, there is no "automatic" in programming, you want something to throw an error, you have to TELL it to throw that error. So the incrementing variable in the code won't throw an assert after it reaches a certain value (i.e. cycles of the loop) unless it is specifially told to do that...IF it was what I was describing (and I am not saying it is, just a possible cause), then the ECU would not KNOW a section of code was stuck in a command loop and throw a code, unless someone actually knew the potential for the bug, and wrote specific code to detect it (in which case it WOULD be throwing a code, and we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because my car would be fixed right now). The fact that you DON'T SEE a check engine light, and the ECU does not throw a code, actually SUPPORTS a command loop theory, rather than disproving it, and command loops are the MOST COMMON source of bugs in code, so technically speaking, I wouldn't discount the possibility that the Mazda software engineers made the most common mistake that an engineer can make, it IS a possibility). I am not saying that this IS the problem, however.. software-speaking it would be the most simple and most common reason for a command bug that doesn't throw an error (the command "Open Wastegate @ 4200rpm", is not throwing an error, while the code is repeatedly issuing the command... the fact that the wastegate continues to open until the engine is turned off (code reset) also supports the theory).

The smart thing to do IMO would be run a search in the ECU program for the command to open the wastegate (a smart software angineer would have made a command:execution = 1:1 for any specific procedure), add a non-fatal print assert with specific codes associated with each instance of that command call in the code, so when owners complain, a dealer can flash their ECU and run a log when that command is called from then on, when the problem happens again, they can check the log and KNOW where in the code the ECU is opening the wastegate at 4200rpm when it happens, and check the code for why it was doing it. Flashing cars with software to detect the trigger, would be an easier approach than trying to drive the crap out of a demo car untill it happens. We would have a solution to this (even if it IS a hypersensitivity to low octane gas which triggers it), the next time it happens to any of us. A proactive response rather than reactive...

it was 2 1/2 days between the time I filled up, and the day it had the problem. (Filled up thursday morning, problem happened Saturday afternoon)

Anyway I'll update you guys after I bring the car back to Mazda.

 

[BlkZoomZoom]

I still think you are bitching, and I never talked down to you.
The Ms6 does have monitiors checking the wastegate solenoid activity, and there are fault codes built in for the system. So if the system was acting abnormally, the dealer would know by simply checking the fault codes. I think thats what you were asking or talking about in that big line of mumblejumble. Thats one of the reasons I think that either you got a bad batch of gas OR the pcm is monitioring or interpreting the o2 sensors incorrectly.

I'm curious what they are going to check when you bring it in.

 

[scott42]

I'd def be 'bitching' if this were me. As Newf said, it sounds like MNAO has learned nothing. I was debating test driving the MS6 and maybe even look into buying one if I liked. I'll pass after reading this. Best of luck in getting this resolved.

 

[FX-MAN]

BlkZoom... IF there are fault codes, WHY are we not getting fault codes when this TOTAL loss of power is happening? Why do you clasify it as "bitching" that we are discussing this very common problem and trying to solve the issue?

"Wow you guys are incredible"... that IS talking down to us. I am really not interested in a flame war with you AT ALL. I was trying to educate you as to the frequent possibility of a command loop bug in code.

You are saying that the car is either acting normally or would have thrown a code... when the fact is, the car is NOT throwing a code, and certainly NOT acting normally. Which means that you need to think outside of your narrow thoughts on this issue (which is that it MUST be our fault). I don't quite see how your comments are in any way constructive in helping us to solve this issue.

Scott, in spite of this issue, this is still a fantastic car, I wouldn't rule it out, the problem is rare when it happens (just annoying). Problems like this should be expected with any new high performance model. I would have expected AWD drive problems.

 

[BlkZoomZoom]

The reason you didn't get a fault code is because the system is operating exactly the way it was supposed to. It is designed to back the power down when it feels the octane level of the fuel cannot support full power safely. If it does as designed then there won't be a fault code. Kinda like how on a Msp if you hit fuel cut it doesn't throw a fault code.

You are right, my comments mean nothing. You guys can go on thinking that this imaginary "high pressure fuel pump resistor", or "the ect hits 200*f" is the cause of the complaint. Again, what do I know.

And for the "incredible" comment. That was towards Newf, because some how he is thinking the Msp hesisitation could be the same thing as you experienced. It isn't and it can't be, the Msp does not have a pcm controlled wastegate.

 

[FX-MAN]

like I said. I am not wanting a flame war, but your posts are 100% non-constructive. I just wish you could be either be in THIS discussion between those of us interested in solving this issue, or not be here at all.

There IS something wrong that is not related to putting 87 octane gas in this car. That much we know. So as smart as you are, you MIGHT actually be wrong... I know from most of your posts on this board, you think that is impossible, but guess what, There is a problem with the MS6 ECU opening the wastegate, which is not related to putting lower than suggested octane gas in the car.... and it needs fixing.

I have spoken with friends with STi, EVO, WRX, RX-7, Twin Turbo Eclipse, Turbo Porche 911s, and none of those high-performance turbo cars have an issue where they lose all boost at what feels like totally random intervals, which then just as randomly fixes itself. WE don't think this is related to gas, because if it WERE the problem wouldn't go away after AN HOUR, with no change in fuel, and then not come back for a couple weeks. The ECU is not telling us what is wrong, so Mazda needs to figure it out.

I am sure you know what you are talking about though, I am SURE that no Mazda engineer would have code bugs in the ECU programming, and NO sensor on any car was ever faulty. IN FACT, with new vehicle models, there are never issues, it's not common at all. It's always the dumb asses why bought the car's fault when there are recalls. Your right man.. go to bed feeling smarter than all us morons who have the MS6 and fill up our tanks at gas stations that SAY 94 octane and are actually pumping 87, we all know that is very common. I mean all 8 of the new cars and both the used cars that I have owned have had issues exactly like this when I put premium in them.