Methanol Injection - Injector Location

[Maxx Mazda]

Direct port provides a better atomization closer to the combustion chamber. However, the smaller nozzle sizes combined with the greater number of nozzles mean component failure is more likely. Also, because the nozzles are now after the throttle body, a check valve must be run to keep the engine from "drinking" the methanol under vacuum.

 

[justanothermp5]

im not an expert on meth injection. but normally..you would use the meth injection to actually inject meth...and not just pure water
isnt pure water bad?

 

[XoX1de]

The reason why to use 50/50 mix is for freezing temps and chemical intercooling. Water it self is better as knock suppression than metanol, water have "infinite octane" I ran pure water because I dont need chemical intercooling by meth, and I dont drive my car in winter.

This is why the WW2 plane use meth water mix, at high altitude it wont be frozen.

As for the BOV thing, not good for it? only time will tell, Im experimentin as nobody seems to have gut to try it and all I heard is those whinnies say oh theoretically it will blow up your BOV. The first person run water injection on the car was treated as an ******* idiot too, cuz water and engine = hydrolock...forumgeeks alway think they are right.

 

[XoX1de]

Direct port provides a better atomization closer to the combustion chamber. However, the smaller nozzle sizes combined with the greater number of nozzles mean component failure is more likely. Also, because the nozzles are now after the throttle body, a check valve must be run to keep the engine from "drinking" the methanol under vacuum.

throttle body injection is better imo, because air is not evenly distributed between the cylinders, so the mist will follow the path of the air and supresss the knock accordingly if a cylinder have more air .

 

[justanothermp5]

ah okay...makes sense i guess

 

[mspHtown]

Lets end the bickering kids, But the facts are this (ask google they even know!)

You use a MIXTURE or Pure Meth, NOT JUST WATER. And you never put it behind the BOV because its not good for it (the BOV).

Actually, you can use 100% methanol, 50% water / 50% methanol, or 100% water. Not to mention you can use any combination in between. (Refer to the information posted later in the post)

But to the OP point... it was a kinda tl;dr moment for me... Can I get a sparknote on it?

I'm assuming "tl;dr" means too long; didn't read. It's frustrating posting anything helpful on this forum. I have spent a great deal of time and money on my car and believe some people can benefit from my experiences. It's beyond disappointing people (especially a moderator) can't even take the time to read a few paragraphs, especially before posting a question or commenting in the thread.

Cliff notes - nozzle placement cannot be summed up in 1 sentence.

Do you strongly agree with direct port in being better then being ~6' away from TB?

This makes no sense. The entire documentation supports the fact that I believe pre-throttle body is the best solution for nozzle placement for the average joe's application (i.e. daily driver). In an ideal world where money grows on trees, nozzles never clog, lines never break, etc. then direct port may be the better solution.








There is a lot of documentation and information on the web and definitely other car forums.

Here is a write-up by esevo (with additional information from aquamist's Richard L.) on the evolutionm.net forums (evolutionm.net):

"100% Methanol (CH3OH)


Methanol aka Meth is combustible and has a lower viscosity than water. Meth’s viscosity is [cP] 0.544 Water’s viscosity is [cP] 0.894. Meth also has a very low surface tension, 20 dyne/cm compared to water, 70dyne/cm. Liquids with higher viscosities will not make such a splash when poured at the same velocity

SLOWCAR had a perfect example, if you have poured meth before you will notice it is harder to pour and keep straight without splashing vs. water due to lower viscosity.

Those two properties of Methanol make it more capable of even cylinder distribution than water. Also meth has a better atomization than water allowing for more heat to be removed from the air allowing cooler air intake temps.

Methanol has a high octane rating and can help increase power due to this increase in detonation control. Meth’s octane rating depends a lot on how it is measured. Various reports give methanol different values, but 115 octane seems about typical. This really only has an effect on pre-detonation lowering the probability of predet to occur. Lack of knock will be due to the cooler air temps and the added “fuel”(meth) in the cylinder, but not the octane rating as it has little to due with the deflagration burn and primarily to do with the detonation burn in which it tries to prevent hence a high octane rating. Running 100% methanol is easy to tune and make great additional power; turn up the boost, up the timing and lean it out a bit. Because of the this easy to tune and use method, it makes it to be the favorite of a lot of tuners.

One of the drawbacks of methanol is that it’s corrosive to aluminum. Methanol, although a weak acid, attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminum from corrosion. This has yet to prove to be a big problem when it is used as an additive vs fuel source, but should be looked at as a possible long term problem.
Another side effect of Meth is the amount needed to that of a 50/50 mix is double! And triple that of 100% water! When looking at cost $35 for 5 gallons of VP M1 Say that lasts you 4 weeks. With a 50/50 mix 5 gallons could in theory last twice as long! In one year Expect $420 to be spent on meth. Expect $240 on 50/50 mixture.


Great caution is to be used with 100% Methanol. Here is a Warning given by Aquamist’s Richard L:
WARNING:
Great care must be exercised when 100% methanol is used.

1) The system must be checked for smallest leaks. Any electrical spark will start a fire.
2) Breather hole from the tank must be vented outside the car, well away from the exhaust pipe. If the correct air/methanol concentration is attained during the incoming air occupying the void left by the deminishing methanol level inside the tank. It can potentially be quite explosive.
3) All electrical connections must be terminated properly, avoid any sparkes being generated.
4) The tank area must be well ventilated in case some methanol is spilled during re-filling. I strongly suggesting using a remote filler cap, positioned well away from carpet or any fluid absorbing materials such as trunk lining or carpets. You can get them from: http://fluids.flambeau.com/component...er_spouts.html
5) Common sense is essential and don't take any risk.

100% Water (H2O)


Water is not combustible and has an infinite octane rating since it can’t detonate.
Water provides the most effective cooling due to its great density and high heat absorption properties. Water has the second highest specific heat capacity of any known chemical compound on earth! This allows for cooler in-cylinder temps and exhaust gas temps and far superior knock suppressing than anything else! But in order to see the true benefit (power/torque) of 100% water you have to run extreme boost levels (30psi +) along with insane timing (8+* +) and extremely lean afrs (12.5*’s) because the water allows you to do so safely (lol).

A draw back to doing that is obvious;
One: if the system was to fail and not produce the water flow needed, it will result in total engine failure from the extreme levels almost immediately and a failsafe won’t have much control due to the extremes of every aspect of the given tune situation.

Two: Water sticks to itself. Water has a high surface tension caused by the strong cohesion between water molecules because it is polar. Water also has high adhesion properties because of its polar nature. All that simply means it will not spread evenly to every cylinder and does not atomize as well as say meth, so it can cause certain cylinders to run dangerous and some not.

SLOWCAR showed the benefits and the draw backs of a 100% water system.
On 87 octane and high boost with lean Afrs and high timing he managed 350+ whp on a Mustang dyno! All that on a STOCK Evo 8 motor and turbo!!! What was the draw back? The water did not distribute evenly causing a cylinder to run extremely lean and cause total engine failure.

Rally cars use 100% water for that benefit but have got it to distribute evenly and reliably. They use water because of its ability to cool. Since rally cars rarely see high speeds they rarely get the penetration to cool bigger intercoolers and radiators so they needed a subsidiary, Water. WRC teams have been known to produce 40 psi 8+* of timing and 12.5* Afrs making 350 whp and near 500 wtq! All that with 100% water injection.


50/50 Water (H2O) & Methanol (CH3OH)


Ok you have made it this far. You now understand both the benefits and the drawbacks to both 100% Methanol and %100 Water. 50/50 in simple terms takes the benefits of both meth and water, combines them and looses the drawbacks. With meth you get the cooler air temps, higher octane (predet control), and the greater atomization and even distribution. With the water you greatly reduced knock, reduced in-cylinder temps (40* or more), Lower egts, its less corrosive and get the cost effectiveness (lasts longer). With both you can make safer more reliable and consistent results in power, torque and reliability. Don’t forget the money you save over race fuel .



But this all comes with a buyer beware: Each car is different, each tuner is different, and each kit is different, therefore each result will be different to a degree. Find a tuner who is confident about each one of these mixtures, who can tune each one and who knows the effects of these various mixtures. For further discussion also research how these mixtures are distributed as that makes a crucial difference as well. I’m biased and will say Aquamist is the best but it’s all up to you in the end."

you can find that article at:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/water-alcohol-injection-nos/372627-injection-mixtures-101-a.html




Exact nozzle placement is another can of worms.

I have my nozzle roughly 6-8 inches from the throttle body with no issues. I also have the nozzle post blow off valve.

 

[Outlawstar98]

Actually, you can use 100% methanol, 50% water / 50% methanol, or 100% water. Not to mention you can use any combination in between. (Refer to the information posted later in the post)
Ive read alot of place that suggust not to do 100%


I'm assuming "tl;dr" means too long; didn't read. It's frustrating posting anything helpful on this forum. I have spent a great deal of time and money on my car and believe some people can benefit from my experiences. It's beyond disappointing people (especially a moderator) can't even take the time to read a few paragraphs, especially before posting a question or commenting in the thread.

Cliff notes - nozzle placement cannot be summed up in 1 sentence.

I actually did read the first post.... But its the internet most people dont, I read everything in my sections I moderate, i have no life hahaha
But meth injection at its base isnt that complicated, so all this text is to much for people that just cruse the internet and want a question answered quickly and easily, see what im saying?



This makes no sense. The entire documentation supports the fact that I believe pre-throttle body is the best solution for nozzle placement for the average joe's application (i.e. daily driver). In an ideal world where money grows on trees, nozzles never clog, lines never break, etc. then direct port may be the better solution.
I read though it and it didnt make 100% to me... I never really looked into Meth injection. I know many people who have it but i never needed it or read up on it. I just want to make sure what I am reading is what i think it is meant and not taken the wrong way.

 

[dmention7]

Good thread, now that the e-peens have been put away, haha.

I purchased a used meth kit a few months back, and I'm still trying to get a good handle on what I'm doing before I install it; whether I want to run straight water at first or a 50/50 mixture, nozzle placement, etc.

The arguments for cold-pipe placement of the nozzle make total sense to me. This is after all a DD, and I'm shooting more for a charge cooling / safety margin application rather than going for a really aggressive tune. That, and I have a penchant for doing things the hard way. lol

 

[XoX1de]

Ive read that post on evolutionm forum before start talking anything about w/i. Awesome information.

 

[mspHtown]

For anyone that is interested, I've collected a bit more information from various vendors. No one mentions exact distances nor provides location testing with hard data.



Richard L. from Aquamist:

"Water normally exists in the form of liquid (as in puddle) or in vapour (humid air). Anything between the two states is termed as suspended droplet. The size of the droplet is proportional to the surrounding temperature and pressure. You will notice this when driving in the early hour of the morning through and series of foggy areas. Area where the sun heat has shone through is normally clear of fog. It doesn't mean the the droplets has turn into single molecules, it just become smaller and one can see through it (no fog).

If you apply the same physical property of water vapour in water injection application, it should behave the same way. Water is converted into small droplets via an atomising nozzle for the sole purpose of increasing the surface area. If water is used for effective induction cooling, the nozzle should logically be placed as far away from the throttle as possible, allowing ample time for the hot air exiting the IC to mix with the water droplet. During its journey, as the heat is being absorbed, the droplet size is reduced. Please note that there is never enough heat energy to reduce the water droplet size to a single molecule. At best the drop might reduce from 80 um to 60 micron. Each micron-droplet still contains thousands of molecule of water, the occupation of air volume is minimal.

A relatively minor reduction in droplet size will absorb a great deal of heat in the inlet track. The amount of vaporisation will depend on the temperature, pressure and wetness of the incoming air. When the 100% relative humidity is reached, no more vaopour is formed. The droplet continues its journey pass the throttle and into each inlet runner. If the droplet is small, there is a good chance of better droplet distribution amongst the cylinders. Most engines are tuned to the knock threshold, if the droplet is not evenly distributed, one will tune the engine based on the cylinder receiving the least amount of cooling. The other cylinders are over cooled and loose combustion temperature and pressure - simply put, power is lost unnecessarily. Methanol behaves much the same as water."


Labonte Motorsports:

"If you have an intercooler we recommend placing the nozzle between
the intercooler and throttle body. Never place the nozzle prior to the
turbo. If you have a roots or twin screw style supercharger, it is
acceptable to place prior. Nozzle can be installed after throttle body,
make sure FCS-10 solenoid is used. Unless you have dual carburetors, dual throttle bodies or more then 1000 HP, you should not need multiple nozzles."

AEM:

"Select the location where the nozzle will be installed. It must be before (upstream of) the throttle plate. If a MAFsensor is present, it must be placed between the MAF sensor and the throttle plate. If an intercooler is present place the jet between the intercooler outlet and the throttle plate. For the maximum cooling effect mount the nozzle toward the filter or turbo discharge."

Aquamist:

"Water jet location - The HFS-1 comes with three jets, Y-piece and two
1/8BSP to M8 nickel plated brass adaptors. Select a suitable location preferably not too far from the exit of the intercooler. This is to allow more time for mixing and evaporation, thus promoting better inlet-tract cooling even in-cylinder distribution."

 

[mspHtown]

For 99% of the people looking to put water/methanol injection on their protege, it seems to me the optimum setup consists of:

A: 50% methanol / 50% water mixture
B: 1 nozzle
C: pre-throttle body setup relatively close to the throttle body



A:
1) Best of both worlds: meth provides cooler temps, boost in octane, greater atomization (leading to better overall distribution) and water reduces knock and cylinder temps.
2) Diluting the methanol saves you a decent amount of money (i.e. distilled water only costs a buck per gallon.)
3) Diluting the methanol creates a mixture that is exponentially safer (fire and inhalation risk greatly decrease).

B:
1) Less points of failure.
2) Simplicity allows for an easier installation.
3) Cheaper system.
4) Failsafe systems may perform better.

C:
1) A relatively close distance to the throttle body gives the mixture time to atomize and properly cool the intake air.
2) Too far from the throttle body gives the methanol more time to evaporate and it may lose some of its advantages.
3) Too close to the throttle body and the mixture may not properly atomize and may not properly cool the intake air.
4) Regardless of the actual amount of methanol/water the blow off valve sees, I would recommend installing the injection nozzle post blow off valve. The bov is not designed to see a methanol/water mixture, nor does the bov need to complicate the system.



Like usual, gaining benefit out of a mod is a function of a multitude of parameters. No one here has tested exact nozzle locations versus exact mixture qualities while recording all of the relevant data. But, the setup does not have to be perfect. Most of us are daily drivers which means we want a setup that works well (makes a positive difference), is safe to run (longevity and safety wise), and is decently priced.

So people looking to find a quick answer... pre-throttle body with a 50/50 mix.

 

[Tzar177]

So for someone who knows nothing about meth injection...does this inject meth the entire time you drive or is it user controlled? Is this mainly for racing/auto x? How often does a tank need filled?

 

[pavone]

So for someone who knows nothing about meth injection...does this inject meth the entire time you drive or is it user controlled? Is this mainly for racing/auto x? How often does a tank need filled?

depends on the kit. some kits run a system that has boost specified points that go 50% spray and 100% spray at 2 diff boost levels. some have 1 boost levels and there are also more simple systems available but most run off a boost setting, so for fill up it depends on how hard your driving and the size of your tank.

some kits come with a low level indicator light you can bring up to the driver compartment which is neat.

ive been looking into these for a long time and think im gonna make the jump soon, i like the idea of a trunk mounted kit that is easy and clean.

 

[mspHtown]

depends on the kit. some kits run a system that has boost specified points that go 50% spray and 100% spray at 2 diff boost levels. some have 1 boost levels and there are also more simple systems available but most run off a boost setting, so for fill up it depends on how hard your driving and the size of your tank.

some kits come with a low level indicator light you can bring up to the driver compartment which is neat.

ive been looking into these for a long time and think im gonna make the jump soon, i like the idea of a trunk mounted kit that is easy and clean.

the progressive system seems like the way to go. you set a lower threshold where the methanol activates and you set an upper threshold where the methanol is at peak injection. you adjust the rate of injection depending on how close/how far the thresholds are to one another. this allows for a gradual injection of the mixture, and not a surge at one threshold like a simple system that activates full injection at 1 threshold. also with a progressive system, you will use less methanol/water. even if you hit low boost, you are not injecting at peak rates all of the time.

i have my tank and pump mounted in the trunk. i think it looks clean but it definitely was a MOFO to install how i liked it. il post pictures of my setup later if anyone is interested.

 

[dmention7]

I've been planning a trunk mounted tank/pump, so I'd be interested in some pics of how it's been done.

 

[mspHtown]

I've been planning a trunk mounted tank/pump, so I'd be interested in some pics of how it's been done.

tank and pump mounted in trunk:

progressive controller in center console (next to j and s safeguard):

methanol flow gauge (steering column pod):

failsafe mounted to the battery case (slips in and out of pocket for easy removal):

injection solenoid, haltech boost solenoid, and boost bypass solenoid (mounted on a bracket):

pre-throttle body nozzle:

 

[dmention7]

Clean setup. I like it!

Thanks for posting pics

 

[LinuxRacr]

tank and pump mounted in trunk:


injection solenoid, haltech boost solenoid, and boost bypass solenoid (mounted on a bracket):

Nice setup, accept for the plastic vacuum T. In my experience, they can fail easily for boosted applications. May want to replace it with some type of barbed metal T instead.

 

[mspHtown]

Clean setup. I like it!

Thanks for posting pics

thanks, np.

Nice setup, accept for the plastic vacuum T. In my experience, they can fail easily for boosted applications. May want to replace it with some type of barbed metal T instead.

thanks for the compliment.

i dont know why your's failed (could have been a manufacturers defect or extreme heat exposure), but plastic fittings are plenty strong. i used 2 plastic T's on the brake booster for several years and only recently replaced them with a vacuum block and brass fittings. the plastic fittings were in great shape.

i do agree metal fittings are stronger, but the ID of these vacuum lines is incredibly small. Assuming constant wall thickness, the smaller the radius of the fitting, the less circumferential stress (Hoops stress) there is.

 

[SCMP3]

this thread is very informative. ive been considering MI for a while. so what kit is that that you have? and what kit is the best for the protege?