Mazda Ice Academy: Trial By Ice And Snow CX-5, CX-3 And MX-5

Mazda must have invited all the big magazines to the Ice Academy for test driving, reports keep trickling in:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/3-things-learned-mazda-awd-ice-academy/
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/st...own-rides-mazda-ice-academy-article-1.2535205
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1102440_even-in-the-snow-the-answer-is-always-mazda-miata-video

IMO, Mazda marketing and PR really hit a home run with this event, especially having the journalists being the testers themselves, keeping the "rigged" factor minimum. It's hard to argue against when the same opinion comes from multiple voices.

@ALafya: thanks for the links to the Subaru camp, fun to read, at least it's more lively over here (200+ vs 98 posts). The mix of users seems to be similar for both camps, ranging from defensive fanboys to technical nerds, although they probably need a "muiniatbonu" over there bashing the Forester to complete the diversity :)
 
CX-5um said:
Not sure if some folks there are just being sarcastic or are really ill informed. To those folks reading this.... No the CX-5 won't explode in a rear collision accident. The fix for potential leaks caused by an accident involves removing 1 bolt and applying some tape for the most part.
Click to expand...

Summary of the Subaru Forum reaction to Mazda vs. Subaru winter test:

1) Everyone knows Subaru AWD is better than Mazda AWD, the test is meaningless because they had different tires.
2) They had different tires, it was a tire test not a test of their AWD. Everyone knows Subaru AWD is better than Mazda AWD.
3) What? They all had the same tires? Oh well, doesn't matter because everyone already knows Subaru AWD is better.
4) We don't know how reliable Mazda AWD is. Subaru AWD is better.
5) It took Mazda 3 years to say their AWD was better. Something is fishy. Subaru has always said their AWD is better.
6) Mazda is disqualified from consideration because it explodes in a rear-end collision. So Subaru is the best AWD that is safe enough to consider.
7) Mazda is not even available for sale because of explosion potential. Subaru is the best AWD available.
8) Subaru has better AWD than Mazda. Everyone already knows this. If a test showed differently from what we already know, the test must have been rigged.
9) Subaru AWD is better than Mazda AWD. This we know. Amen.
 
MikeM. said:
Summary of the Subaru Forum reaction to Mazda vs. Subaru winter test:

1) Everyone knows Subaru AWD is better than Mazda AWD, the test is meaningless because they had different tires.
2) They had different tires, it was a tire test not a test of their AWD. Everyone knows Subaru AWD is better than Mazda AWD.
3) What? They all had the same tires? Oh well, doesn't matter because everyone already knows Subaru AWD is better.
4) We don't know how reliable Mazda AWD is. Subaru AWD is better.
5) It took Mazda 3 years to say their AWD was better. Something is fishy. Subaru has always said their AWD is better.
6) Mazda is disqualified from consideration because it explodes in a rear-end collision. So Subaru is the best AWD that is safe enough to consider.
7) Mazda is not even available for sale because of explosion potential. Subaru is the best AWD available.
8) Subaru has better AWD than Mazda. Everyone already knows this. If a test showed differently from what we already know, the test must have been rigged.
9) Subaru AWD is better than Mazda AWD. This we know. Amen.
Click to expand...

Here are some additional points they made:
1. Subaru has multiple (at least 3) different AWD systems. The one shown/tested is the CVT based ActiveAWD. The manual transmission viscous coupling one is better (not sure about the rear-biased AWD). Some discussion re LSD, which is not applicable to the tested Forester.
2. WRX Sti, with actual center diff, is better but bad comparison.
3. Torque Vectoring is inferior to Subaru's full-time system.
4. What? Subaru also does torque vectoring? Really? (Yes, it is essentially a very similar setup to Mazda's).
5. How is Mazda's system predictive? i.e. if there is a pothole around the corner, how can the car predict it? Sending 60:40 torque (w/ ActiveAWD, which is not really true BTW) is better because it is full-time.
6. CX-3 is inferior to CrossTrek because of 6 vs 8 inch of ground clearance.
7. X-Mode not used (we don't know that for sure), which is applicable to the tested speed, below 18MPH (X-Mode is not available on all trims of the Forester, and only on the very latest).
8. CX-5, Forester & others compared by Australian mag in *sand* performed worse than most, had clutch-pack/diff heating up and then being disabled issue.
9. Competition is good. Subaru rested on laurels of past abilities for too long, now needs to make their s/w better.
10. The demonstration only shows that Mazda does better when the wheel is turned to full lock (I think it is only 1 full turn of the wheel). This is not a very useful/common maneuver to care about (not completely true: slalom also performed).
 
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I liked the theme of how unreliable Mazda's AWD is because of so much more sensors incorporated into the predictive control logic. In fact, AWD uses only one extra sensor, the rear clutch pack temperature one, compared to FWD, or pretty much any other car on the road. It's the AWD software that takes existing data and makes decision 200 times/sec.
Unless they incorporate the environmental awareness into new Subaru models, there is no way that their AWD could be better, because of the axle binding. Subaru's AWD HAS TO tone down the torque sent to the rear wheels proportionally to the steering angle. Otherwise the car will be unsafe in turns, and the tire wear will be unacceptable.
Mazda's AWD does the same thing on the dry pavement. But if it knows it's on snow or other slippery surface, it can send more torque to the rear, as the cross-axle slippage will be unnoticeable or otherwise acceptable.
Looks like Mazda leading the pack for now. Until big boys come up with something better.
 
ALafya said:
10. The demonstration only shows that Mazda does better when the wheel is turned to full lock (I think it is only 1 full turn of the wheel). This is not a very useful/common maneuver to care about.
Click to expand...

It is if you live in a very hilly area that gets snow. This shows me the CX-5 should be better on rain soaked roads as well using the same maneuver on a lane merge from a stop on a hill.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/new...heel-drive-systems-are-created-equally/page-2

"In a handling course including a slalom and large half oval, the CR-V switched between plowing with understeer and snapping to oversteer with the rear end hanging out. The Forester did its best to distribute power and keep things moving in the right direction as the wheels slipped, but it felt sloppy and unsettled. Interesting the CX-5 felt unflappable and went immediately where you pointed despite my attempts to hang the tail out or get sideways."

Undoubtedly these other manufacturers will take notice and begin to incorporate some of the same sensors into their systems.
 
sillyxone said:
Mazda must have invited all the big magazines to the Ice Academy for test driving, reports keep trickling in:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/3-things-learned-mazda-awd-ice-academy/
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/st...own-rides-mazda-ice-academy-article-1.2535205
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1102440_even-in-the-snow-the-answer-is-always-mazda-miata-video

IMO, Mazda marketing and PR really hit a home run with this event, especially having the journalists being the testers themselves, keeping the "rigged" factor minimum. It's hard to argue against when the same opinion comes from multiple voices.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links. The first two are especially relevant.

Here's another video from the Ice Academy (I don't think it's been posted):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptINtr5xNlM

Now that Mazda has released more details about their AWD, it's interesting to review what people on this forum were saying about it before we had the details of how it actually worked.
 
Kedis82ZE8 said:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/new...heel-drive-systems-are-created-equally/page-2

"In a handling course including a slalom and large half oval, the CR-V switched between plowing with understeer and snapping to oversteer with the rear end hanging out. The Forester did its best to distribute power and keep things moving in the right direction as the wheels slipped, but it felt sloppy and unsettled. Interesting the CX-5 felt unflappable and went immediately where you pointed despite my attempts to hang the tail out or get sideways."
Click to expand...

Driving my 2013 CX-5 w/ 2.0L AWD on a wide variety of challenging situations from bare pavement, tight twisties, torrential downpours on slick roads, snow, ice, potholed gravel/dirt roads, etc. etc, some things about the way it drives stands out from other cars. First off, the body motion is very well controlled, even in fast left/right transitions (as in an accident avoidance maneuver). This not only makes it fun to drive compared to other vehicles in it's class, it could save your life. Sure, it's not a low slung sports car but, for what it is, it stands out above the rest. The wheels remain well planted due to the way the suspension controls body motion. Other cars in it's class are noticeably poorer in this important regard.

The second thing that stands out is the superior tactile feedback I get from the road surface whether that surface is simply wet pavement, gravel or snow/ice. As a driver, this lets me perform at a much higher level and respond more quickly to a loss of cornering or braking traction because the tactile clues that are transmitted back to me though the steering wheel and the seat are much more immediate and useful than visual clues which take a little longer to process and don't provide as early of a warning to begin with. Comparatively speaking, other cars in the same class are numb and dumb in this regard (they lack tactile feedback) and that does not allow me to do my job as a driver as adeptly. This is a big deal.

These two characteristics are not related to the AWD performance in any way. That does not prevent them from being primary reasons why the CX-5 is a better snow/ice vehicle than the Forester or CR-V (amongst others). The fact that it transfers power to the rear when needed with more timeliness and at more appropriate ratios based on sensor data is just the frosting on the cake.
 
sillyxone said:
From this video: "we eventually got the Subaru over the incline but we had to activate the X-Mode system" (around 1:35)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP8daVjr06Y
Click to expand...


X-mode must be activated manually and switches itself into regular cripple mode every time the vehicle exceeds 18 mph (which is not very fast, even for driving on snow and ice). Mazda's predictive AWD doesn't need to be turned on, it works at any speed and it's always ready to go.

X-mode is not even available on the Forester 2.5i and 2.5i Premium models, you need to move up to the 2.5i Limited to be able to use X-mode and that's $29,645 with no additional options. No X-mode unless you pay for leather seats and automatic climate control. Even the entry level AWD CX-5's have the always on predictive AWD feature.
 
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How about hearing from someone that can offer regular real world driving experiences from both vehicles?

attachment.php

Mazda-Subaru.jpg

I have both a 2016 CX-5 & 2016 Outback. I have to say that they both perform excellent on snow covered roads. This year I have driven on ice, unplowed roads 18" deep with inclines and in temperatures down to -10F. Now granted, I don't have an apples to apples comparison because I decided to put different brands of snow tires on them. Also, I didn't perform any controlled tests. But, I think I've gotten used to both AWD systems this winter and how they perform under various snow conditions. I found that my brain easily adapted to their individual response I felt from each vehicle. Both offer a different experience. My personal driving preference is with the CX-5 because it thinks more like I do and it is sportier to drive. But, I could easily imagine that someone else would prefer the Subaru especially with its cushy suspension offering a much less bumpy ride.

I'm sure that in professional comparison tests that one could point out various flaws in each AWD system to tout that the other is better because of such and such. I haven't found that to be the case in my real world driving experiences. Nothing sticks out enough as being something that I could say one is better than the other concerning traction. My take away is that it really comes down to the driving feel as to what a person will like best. Then there is longevity of which I know nothing yet - I'm hoping that both will last a long time.

My setup is noted below for anyone curious to know.

2016 Mazda CX-5 GT AWD w/tech pkg

Warm Season:
Wheels: Aluminum Alloy Wheel 19" OEM part#???
Tires: 225/55R19 Toyo A23

Snow Season:
Wheels: Aluminum Alloy Wheel 18" Gunmetal OEM part#B45B-V3-810
Tires: 225/60R18 Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2 SUV
​


2016 Subaru Outback Limited 2.5i

Warm Season:
Wheels: Aluminum Alloy Wheel 18" OEM part#28111AL03A
Tires: 225/60R18 Bridgestone Dueler H/P Sport AS

Snow Season:
Wheels: Aluminum Alloy Wheel 17" OEM part#28111AL02A
Tires: 225/65R17 Bridgestone Blizzak WS-80​
 
Kedis82ZE8 said:
I drove my old beater Explorer during most of my travels through the passes this winter. I plan to use the CX-5 more next winter.

I'm gonna go with 17" Blizzak DM-V2s that Mazda used in their ice academy.

Not fond of plain steel wheel rims... need to find a set of rims the wife and I can agree on. I like silver colored more than black.
Click to expand...

It's worth noting that the Mazda 6 and 3 use 17 in. Wheels, and they fit.
 
MikeM. said:
X-mode must be activated manually and switches itself into regular cripple mode every time the vehicle exceeds 18 mph (which is not very fast, even for driving on snow and ice). Mazda's predictive AWD doesn't need to be turned on, it works at any speed and it's always ready to go.

X-mode is not even available on the Forester 2.5i and 2.5i Premium models, you need to move up to the 2.5i Limited to be able to use X-mode and that's $29,645 with no additional options. No X-mode unless you pay for leather seats and automatic climate control. Even the entry level AWD CX-5's have the always on predictive AWD feature.
Click to expand...

Mazda owners need to press a button or whatever just to pass people (Sport mode, yo!), so X-mode shouldn't be argued against because you have to turn it on.
 
Kedis82ZE8 said:
I drove my old beater Explorer during most of my travels through the passes this winter. I plan to use the CX-5 more next winter.

I'm gonna go with 17" Blizzak DM-V2s that Mazda used in their ice academy.

Not fond of plain steel wheel rims... need to find a set of rims the wife and I can agree on. I like silver colored more than black.

bs_blizzakdmv2_pdpcrop.jpg

bs_blizzakdmv2_pdpfull.jpg

bs_blizzakdmv2_pdptrd.jpg
Click to expand...

Why not Xi2's? Leave them on full-time.
 
Unobtanium said:
Why not Xi2's? Leave them on full-time.
Click to expand...

You seem to have an aversion to swapping out tires. It's not a big deal (I do it myself in 30 minutes) and this mod gives an incredible performance boost in cornering and braking summer and winter vs. any other mod you can do. Yes, one size fits all might be a good solution if you don't care about driving performance. But for those who do, there is no "one size fits all" solution that even comes close to the performance of tires designed for specific conditions.

Yes, I also use a different bicycle for forest trails than I do when riding on pavement. They both have tires and frame geometry designed to perform under different environments.
 
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