liberals get a pat on the back for this....

digital, you have made some very good points. however i cannot think of the KKK as republican. they are extremists.

micheal moore IMO, is a complete moron. i do not care for anything he says. how can he call out the Prez on national tv like he did when we are at war? very un-american.

i am not saying i am high and mighty ;) however when i get into a debate with a liberal, 9 out of 10 of them have no idea what they are talking about. they have views that parallel those in the video i posted. :wtf: why would we go to iraq to steal their oil, when we have huge reserves in our own country, in alaska?

this is one thing i dont understand about the arguement about the economy...before 9/11 the economy was great. after, well it went in the crapper. how can that be bush's fault? the Dow is 1000 points away from being at its highest ever. it was very low, around the 9000 point mark. now its upwards of 10500. jobs are slowing coming back.

ok, i have a huge hangover. im out for now.
 
DigitalDuality said:
^
and lack of what's going on in the world and understanding people's opposing or different views doesn't?

Nah.. ignorance is just as bad. There's really no good way around any of it.
 
I do consider the KKK as republican b/c that's where the majority of their vote goes, just as ELF (enivornmentalists that have been known to bomb car dealerships) mostly vote Democrat. Yes both are extremists. But i also consider Ashcroft as an extremist too, no he doesn't direct hurt someone, blow up s***, and burn crosses. But he definately wants an Orwellian police state. The term "Big Brother is watching you" coined in Orwell's 1984 sums up that man left and right and i despise him and all his actions.

I do think Michael Moore is an idiot, but i don't like using the term "un-american". I do think Moore like this country, i just think he hates the current admin, and whether you dislike Clinton or Bush, i think voicing your opinion is a-ok, i just wish if people were to do it they had the intelligence to back it up.

About our oil, Alaska only has enough reserves for America to sustain themselves for 5 to maybe 10 years taking in extreme conservation techniques. Alaska does provide a good source of oil for us if anything was to happen, but its more of a nest egg than anything else saved away for a rainy day. Not only that but it would do a huge hurting on american economy and petrol prices would soar. It costs more to drill in alaska for oil, the little we have, than it does to import foriegn oil. According to an article in the Economist, Alaskan oil dependancy could cause gas prices to rise to 3-4 dollars per gallon. Not to mention to cost of manufactuering oil base products (plastics).

The economy i don't largely blame on Bush. I do dislike Bush b/c i dislike his tactice is favoring the white, religious, hetero, christian. Just as much as i despise the dems for favoring the black, feminsit, gay, and poor. I think both sides truly lack on social issues within america and that's where i put my priorities. Until people are treated with equality and neutrility, i'll never stop bashing our own government about their actions at home. I dislike the right wing's "moral majority" complex as much as i dislike the Dems "special rights" complex. Their both utter bull s***. But overall i think Bush has taken it to new levels. (installing pro-segregation judges, damning rights to homosexuals, making sure his rich friends benefit, and further mixing state and government favoritism torwards the religious). I don't believe in Affirmative action, i don't believe in "gay high schools", i don't believe that religion is something to be condemned. I do think religion should protect itself from governmental abuse for propoganda purposes, and that one religion shouldn't be favored by our government over everyone else's beliefs. I do think gays sould be able to get married, and that discrimination laws need tougher enforcement. there's an objective way and a mid compromise point to look at everything. But people don't like to compromise, they want it their way or the highway. And i'm not into dominance b.s. Blacks shouldn't have the upper hand over the majoirty, anymore than the majority should oppress the weak.

I think Bush has in tiny tiny amounts aided in our recession, but i think Clinton did too in ways. The Economy has a natural cycle of highs and lows, and whoever the president is currently normally gets the credit or criticism that isn't deserved for it.

Bush did promise though to create 200,000 jobs, and has only accomplish a 10th of that as a bounce back. I see that as a horrible failure on his part. Basically it breaks down to huge corporations are profiting again, almost in comparrison to the way they did in 1998 but it hasn't trickled down to the rest of America. The little man and small business is not largely profiting from this, and a 600 buck extra tax return doesn't compare to the profits you can make in rising economy. What worries me about the economy and Bush isn't so much as what's going on currently, but the fact that his spending is taking our deficit to new highs, and this is going to create a recession worse than the one that happened after Jimmy Carter. (which was worse than the one after Bush Sr.)

Clinton gets a pat on the back for a good economy that he largely wasn't responsible for i find. Our economy was doing great due to the tech boom, torwards the end of his admin and during the first 2 years of Bush you were still feeling the over saturation and bursting of that industry. There are many other factors though. If pin pointing all the economics systems problems were as easy as pointing a finger in one place, it'd would cease to be debate, and even Allan Greenspan doesn't know enough to make it perfect.

Economic advantages in Iraq isn't merely centered around oil though either. Haliburton, even after being caught in cheating america out of their money, still has a contract and the ok to aid in rebuilding the infrastrure. They are profitiing nicely from this thanks the Cheney. What is being looked at here is not the immediate return of just oil profits, but american industry as a whole. If we can setup a democracy and maintain a certain level of peace in that area, McDonalds and other fast foods can move in, clothing stores, and many other consumeristic corporations can move into Iraq. My best comprassion is Japan. Japan is more and more americanized by the year.

What i do despise about Bush, is that he wants the war on terror to be the Cold War part deux. Mainly because the military industrial complex is the economic system in which america functions on, and i find that rather desipicable. I think its a system we need to get ourselves out of and learn to balance our economy in other ways. Enron and Worldcom, the dot-com fall, 9/11, all these things aided in our recession, and we will bounce back from it, no doubt. But later on, we will experience a recessions at least three times as bad as this. Bush on his State of the Union address stated that he could cut our deficit in half within a 4-5 year period, while he continually increases spending, 4 bil on a new space race, 1.5 bil on marriage plans, more tax cuts, additional money for Iraq and the war on terror, believe me we'll hurt more from this than benefit. I'd gladly give up my tax return, if it meant the economy stability was to be maintained, too bad most people can't see past the present.

Personally, not to attack america here, but i find our out of control consumerism, pop culture, 24 hour economy and 60 hour work weeks to be the downfall of our culture. It has gotten us much power and much strength, but its shallow in its morality. It doesn't take people's health into consideration, straining work hours of american workplaces have been contributed to higher depression rates, higher suicide rates, increasing hours of both parents working have increased child suicide, pregnancy, and drug use rates b/c the parents aren't there to be parents. Not to mention obesity rates and environmental damage.

And if you notice japan, since american corporations have moved in over there, all these rates have sky rocketed to new highs for that country. And i find that really sad. Iraq is 20-40 years will be no different, it'll be just another market to appeal to and exploit, and it will be at the expense of the good things that do comprise their culture. Not everyone is intelligent enough, or cares enough, to sacrifice the convience this type of culture gives for a higher cause. People are people, and they care about the here and now, and what benefits me, without giving a 2nd thought to the mass cause and effect relationship to it. People are self serving, libs and cons alike.
 
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solar6 said:
the UN does not work!! we have gone through the UN since '91 to get Saddam to prove he does not have WMD's, and he never did, kicked out UN weapon inspectors, and resolutions were agreed upon by numberous countries to go to war with Iraq if they did not supply proof. saddam didnt, and we were the only country with the nuts to stand up to resolution.

The UN does work, and i'll admit it needs improvement. Non-violent means take, sometimes alot, longer than the here and now action towards something.

Yes Saddam ****** around with the UN alot and they should have been tougher, by my general consensus is, the majority of americans who think the UN doesn't work, simply means the UN doesn't work for america's interest as a top priority.

It was never meant to be about the U.S., it was meant to be a worldly organization. American, the bush admin in particular, doesn't like that game. As bush said on the State of the Union speech, he does'nt mind, and actually wants, and international union, but he wants everyone to bow down and back america in whatever decision our government makes.

That's not an international diplomacy. That's the big boy being a bully and through economic and political pull, forcing people to be on our side. That's the type of attitude that creates anti-american sentiment, and it will give rise to international terrorism. America got so big because we were able to get countries to trust us, no nation has ever grown this huge and powerful with the trust that we had around the world up until 5 years ago. The Bush admin is destroying that international trust, and could pave the road for wars to come in the future by killing more bees with s*** rather than sugar.

When u're in a diplomacy or democratic organization, sometimes you don't get what you want and you need to learn how to comprimise. The UN is about the WORLD, not about America.

That's a lesson the French need to learn as well. And speaking of France, Americans hate the french for reasons that America is just as guilty about. Both countries are red,white, and blue, both are arrogant and always want their way, and both are oppurtunistic economically regardless of who gets hurt on your path to profit.
 
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