Lewis7789 2002 Protege5 build thread (tons of pics)
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Oh, they're lardasses, no doubt. Especially the 5 series. However, I did manage to get a 535xi touring sideways, spinning all 4 tires thru an intersection during a BMW Drive For The Cure. I was giggling like a school girl. First thing you'd notice with an I6 in that car is how much torque you have.
Haha! I don't like Phen working on my car. He and I have completely different wrenching styles and we both know it.
I'm thinking I'll work on the KL-ZE in the garage all winter making it perfect and taking my time, then swap it in the spring. My FS-DE is still running strong so there is no rush.
Too true. We typically don't enlist the help of each other unless absolutely needed. Evan is very anal about everything. Very meticulous and detail oriented. Normally, when I have to work on something it's because it had broken and ruined my day so I'm pissed off and flying through it just to get it done... and in the case of my Protege, I had probably already fixed it once or twice on either my car or someone else's. That's not saying I do a shoddy job. The only thing I've fixed multiple times on my car is the drivers side front wheel bearing. Don't know wtf happened there.
PrinceValorum
Member
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- 95 626 FS, 89 Toyota Derux 4x4
Wow, it's been too long since I've visited this thread. I didn't know there were cool plans going down up in herr.
As far as emissions, it shouldn't be too bad of a problem. I don't know of any OBD2 ZE's, since the Probe guys don't care about that shizzle. Best bet for getting an OBD2 KL is the 98-02 626, since it's already the KLG4 with the lightweight crank (over 10lbs lighter). The other good OBD2, and also a low stressed motor is the Millenia, since they were all auto. DO NOT get the 2.3 Miller supercharged motor. It's not the same, and is a huge heap of crap. The problem with getting the regular KLDE from the 626/PGT/MX6 is that the sensors were different for the different years: 93-94 had OBD1, 95 had its own specific stuff, and 96-97 (before they got discontinued in the case of the PGT and MX6, or changed body style for the 626) was OBD2.
Anyway, if you're going to do the ZE, it should still be fine. I've heard that they can pass emissions, even in Cali, which has the strictest stuff, AFAIK. Do you have a visual inspection, Evan? There's absolutely no way that they'll be able to tell what kind of KL it is (even with a different intake mani, there are just too many, and emissions workers are usually ruhtards). Just tell them it's from an 02 626, and the 'older motor' should not be a problem at all.
If you still have trouble getting the ZE to pass emissions, you can get a different intake mani that has an EGR port, such as the G4 or the Milly one, but I'm not sure about which ports match up to which ones. The DE has oval ports, the ZE has square ports, and I think the Milly has oval port holes while the insides of the runners are square, so... it gets confusing quick!
Phen, as far as the axles, if they're the same as the FS 626 (I wouldn't expect them to be), they're good up to like 250whp or something, so even though the v6 ones are beefier, they're not needed, at least until he turbos the KL..
Also, Evan, that motor you posted doesn't come with a ZE, or any, ECU, and that's a biiiig must-have. If you run a regular DE ECU, it won't be making the power of the ZE, and that's the whole point of having one!
I think I'm up to 3 informative posts, now!
As far as emissions, it shouldn't be too bad of a problem. I don't know of any OBD2 ZE's, since the Probe guys don't care about that shizzle. Best bet for getting an OBD2 KL is the 98-02 626, since it's already the KLG4 with the lightweight crank (over 10lbs lighter). The other good OBD2, and also a low stressed motor is the Millenia, since they were all auto. DO NOT get the 2.3 Miller supercharged motor. It's not the same, and is a huge heap of crap. The problem with getting the regular KLDE from the 626/PGT/MX6 is that the sensors were different for the different years: 93-94 had OBD1, 95 had its own specific stuff, and 96-97 (before they got discontinued in the case of the PGT and MX6, or changed body style for the 626) was OBD2.
Anyway, if you're going to do the ZE, it should still be fine. I've heard that they can pass emissions, even in Cali, which has the strictest stuff, AFAIK. Do you have a visual inspection, Evan? There's absolutely no way that they'll be able to tell what kind of KL it is (even with a different intake mani, there are just too many, and emissions workers are usually ruhtards). Just tell them it's from an 02 626, and the 'older motor' should not be a problem at all.
If you still have trouble getting the ZE to pass emissions, you can get a different intake mani that has an EGR port, such as the G4 or the Milly one, but I'm not sure about which ports match up to which ones. The DE has oval ports, the ZE has square ports, and I think the Milly has oval port holes while the insides of the runners are square, so... it gets confusing quick!Phen, as far as the axles, if they're the same as the FS 626 (I wouldn't expect them to be), they're good up to like 250whp or something, so even though the v6 ones are beefier, they're not needed, at least until he turbos the KL..
Also, Evan, that motor you posted doesn't come with a ZE, or any, ECU, and that's a biiiig must-have. If you run a regular DE ECU, it won't be making the power of the ZE, and that's the whole point of having one!
I think I'm up to 3 informative posts, now!
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Visual inspection consists of making sure there's a cat there, but the car must be able to communicate thru the OBD2 port. With out it, you're essentially ****** for Ohio E-check. If there aren't any OBD2 ZE's, then you may as well throw that idea away unless you have a contact outside of the e-check counties where you can register the car.
I'd expect the axles to be shorter. But... it's the same transmission, no? So that wouldn't be an issue using FS axles unless you expect hard launches. I know Kooldino ran his stock MP3 axles at 300+ whp for a couple years before he popped one.
I'd expect the axles to be shorter. But... it's the same transmission, no? So that wouldn't be an issue using FS axles unless you expect hard launches. I know Kooldino ran his stock MP3 axles at 300+ whp for a couple years before he popped one.
ScratchNSniff
Undisputed Parts God
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And if you need MSP axles I have some Cheap...just saying...lol...
PrinceValorum
Member
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- 95 626 FS, 89 Toyota Derux 4x4
The only thing that makes the ZE a ZE is the higher comp pistons, more aggressive cams, square ports, the intake mani and ecu. There are other small differences in the valvetrain and stuff, but those are the main things. The intake mani isn't all that great, apparently. A Russian member on probetalk posted dyno graphs of a ported DE mani making more power than a ported ZE mani. Since the DE has smaller ports to start with, there's more material to remove and you can end up with a better result, plus an EGR port, so that's a winner in my book. It's going to require a lot of research and question-asking to get this sorted out, but I want a KL in my 626, too, so I'm more than happy to share what I know. I'm just not sure if I want to build up a Miata before or after...
I'm not sure how it would be trying to get the KL (any) ecu to work with the P5 wiring harness. I have no knowledge of anything Protege, so you'll have to look that up Evan, about how hard it will be to get the OBD port to communicate. Hopefully a newer 626 would be similar to what you have.
I think the problem is that most people live outside of areas with emissions garbage, so there's not a whole lot of info about how to do stuff legally.
I'm not sure if the Protege and 626 use the same tranny. I know the 626 auto (CD4E) was a total sh*tbox made by Ford and people have had problems with them breaking with well under 100k miles... I haven't heard anything like that about the P5, so I assume that at least the auto is different. Kevin told me that there was a difference between the FP and FS tranny, or axles, and that he had to do something in prep for his planned 2.0 swap. The FP is the FS un-stroked, and also came in the 626 in E-spec mode. Interesting bit is if you put the FP pistons in the FS, you can bump up the compression to I believe it's 9.4 or 9.5:1.
I'm not sure how it would be trying to get the KL (any) ecu to work with the P5 wiring harness. I have no knowledge of anything Protege, so you'll have to look that up Evan, about how hard it will be to get the OBD port to communicate. Hopefully a newer 626 would be similar to what you have.
I think the problem is that most people live outside of areas with emissions garbage, so there's not a whole lot of info about how to do stuff legally.
I'm not sure if the Protege and 626 use the same tranny. I know the 626 auto (CD4E) was a total sh*tbox made by Ford and people have had problems with them breaking with well under 100k miles... I haven't heard anything like that about the P5, so I assume that at least the auto is different. Kevin told me that there was a difference between the FP and FS tranny, or axles, and that he had to do something in prep for his planned 2.0 swap. The FP is the FS un-stroked, and also came in the 626 in E-spec mode. Interesting bit is if you put the FP pistons in the FS, you can bump up the compression to I believe it's 9.4 or 9.5:1.
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Oh...and before you can work on a KL in the garage, you gotta get a damn FP off of the engine stand...
i've finally got all the parts, i just need a weekend where i'm free in order to work on it...
frack!!! i had about a paragraph typed then i hit the wrong button...so i don't remember what i typed exactly, so here goes:
Evan, would you still want to buy the rx7? i just know that you'll have a lot more time and tools to get the car back to normal, let me know, i am serious this time.
shoot me a PM if you don't want to reply in here.
Wes, thanks so much for all the info. I've been doing a lot of reading on ProbeTalk.com and researching the ins and outs of the different KL's. As well as having the Slotege thread bookmarked.
And the E-check isn't an issue now. I was talking to Tessa about my swap and she said "Just register it to my house. Problem solved.".
In the Solotege thread he used a lot of 2.0l parts so I'm good there. Like for the axles and transmission motor mount.
And the E-check isn't an issue now. I was talking to Tessa about my swap and she said "Just register it to my house. Problem solved.".
In the Solotege thread he used a lot of 2.0l parts so I'm good there. Like for the axles and transmission motor mount.
alright man, no problem, what's his forum name again?
PrinceValorum
Member
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- 95 626 FS, 89 Toyota Derux 4x4
Kevin, Pablo's name is tutuga.
Evan, I know we haven't talked about flywheels yet, but an option for a cheap lightweight one is the one from the K8 (1.8L v6) out of the MX3. It's only 15-16 lbs and I've heard of people getting them for like 50$, but I'm not sure if that's from the junkyard or Autozone. There's a difference, like a way to tell them apart, besides the weight. They have a different number of teeth on them than the KL but it still works, lots of guys do it. I'm not sure what the teeth effects, or how many each flywheel has, but that's just an option instead of shelling out like 3-400$ for a Fidanza that's like 8-9 lbs. I'm not sure if the weight effect is compounding, like if you would notice a bigger gain by shaving off those last few pounds than the first few, if that makes sense. If it's going to be that light, you want a rev limiter for sure because one missed shift, and you're suddenly turning 14k rpms like a GSXR 600, only it's a one-time-deal... There's also the more rare KF flywheel that's 13 lbs, but it's the JDM 2.0 motor, also a v6, so I'm not sure how hard it would be to get one of those. The stock KL should be around 22-23 lbs.
This guy can friggin shift, and this is an example of how you can rev it, it's a ZE with the DE valvetrain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn9DUnhv5k8&feature=related
Evan, I know we haven't talked about flywheels yet, but an option for a cheap lightweight one is the one from the K8 (1.8L v6) out of the MX3. It's only 15-16 lbs and I've heard of people getting them for like 50$, but I'm not sure if that's from the junkyard or Autozone. There's a difference, like a way to tell them apart, besides the weight. They have a different number of teeth on them than the KL but it still works, lots of guys do it. I'm not sure what the teeth effects, or how many each flywheel has, but that's just an option instead of shelling out like 3-400$ for a Fidanza that's like 8-9 lbs. I'm not sure if the weight effect is compounding, like if you would notice a bigger gain by shaving off those last few pounds than the first few, if that makes sense. If it's going to be that light, you want a rev limiter for sure because one missed shift, and you're suddenly turning 14k rpms like a GSXR 600, only it's a one-time-deal... There's also the more rare KF flywheel that's 13 lbs, but it's the JDM 2.0 motor, also a v6, so I'm not sure how hard it would be to get one of those. The stock KL should be around 22-23 lbs.
This guy can friggin shift, and this is an example of how you can rev it, it's a ZE with the DE valvetrain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn9DUnhv5k8&feature=related
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PrinceValorum
Member
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- 95 626 FS, 89 Toyota Derux 4x4
Also remembered I've got the 93-01 626 Hayne's Manual with all engines (FS/KL and both trannies), and I've got a copy of the 92-97 (started in 92 in some markets) workshop manual (pdf), so any KL info, specs, torque specs, anything you could ever want (barring ZE specific stuff) is in them. And you're welcome to it.
Niiiiiice. Thanks again, Wes.
Now I just have to figure out which motor I want to track down... My P5 is my daily driver and I'm not into drag racing and rarely do any street racing (probably due to the license plate) but would like to track my car at least once a month at Mid-Ohio/Beaver Run/Nelsons Ledges and other local circuits.
It seems like the ZE has the most power @200hp but the valvetrain isn't as reliable as the DE or G4. And the interefence style motor kinda scares me being my DD. But the high compression, intake mani and cams are appealing. But since I have all winter to build this motor I am leaning towards simply buying a more common (and probably more inexpensive) DE then just swapping the ZE intake mani and cams to it. Plus the DE would be better suited for boost. I won't be boosting the KL anytime soon but who knows about next year. It would be nice to have the stronger motor already installed. But ideal would be to track down a G4 because they seem like the most revised and updated motor available. But probably aren't too common...
Well, I gotta get back to reading more threads over at ProbeTalk about the KL's.
Now I just have to figure out which motor I want to track down... My P5 is my daily driver and I'm not into drag racing and rarely do any street racing (probably due to the license plate) but would like to track my car at least once a month at Mid-Ohio/Beaver Run/Nelsons Ledges and other local circuits.
It seems like the ZE has the most power @200hp but the valvetrain isn't as reliable as the DE or G4. And the interefence style motor kinda scares me being my DD. But the high compression, intake mani and cams are appealing. But since I have all winter to build this motor I am leaning towards simply buying a more common (and probably more inexpensive) DE then just swapping the ZE intake mani and cams to it. Plus the DE would be better suited for boost. I won't be boosting the KL anytime soon but who knows about next year. It would be nice to have the stronger motor already installed. But ideal would be to track down a G4 because they seem like the most revised and updated motor available. But probably aren't too common...
Well, I gotta get back to reading more threads over at ProbeTalk about the KL's.
PrinceValorum
Member
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- 95 626 FS, 89 Toyota Derux 4x4
Remember again, the Milly is a nice donor source (so much to remember...), but you'll have to get a manual tranny from somewhere else (I guess best case would be a ZE tranny, as I've heard they're slightly stronger because of the higher output from the factory, but again, AFAIK that's just hearsay, which is all too common). My mom's Milly crapped out electronically at 63k miles, but the motor was fine... I wish I'd known enough to snatch it a few years ago.
If you can't find a G4 motor, the Milly would be my next bet. I'm not sure about on the KL, but I know on the FS between the DS and ZE, the DE had hydraulic lifters that weren't compatible with the more aggressive ZE cams that used solid lifters (well, now that I actually think about it, I believe the first version of the FS was the FS01, which was from 93-97, and then the revision in 98 with the body style change in the 626 was called the FS-DE and included solid lifters. Just a technicality and it doesn't apply to you, anyway). I believe the G4 switched to solid lifters like the FS did, but that might be another thing to look into, but it's not a problem if you're building up the motor and can just ship yours off to Colt or wherever for a custom grind that would be better than the ZE anyway, and they can be compatible with hydraulic lifters. (it's up to you if you want hydraulic or solid lifters, PM me or google if you don't know the difference) Another thing about the cams is that I believe the KLZE didn't have a distributor, and as a result the cam doesn't have the trigger thing (I forget all the technical terms) on the end of the cam stick for the distributor, so that could be a potential complication of you have a DE and try to stick ZE cams in it.
Personally this is the motor I would build:
G4 base/block for the lightweight crank
ZE pistons
DE/ZE ported head (they're the same, basically)
custom cams
DE valvetrain, perhaps Interprep springs
ported G4 intake mani (for the EGR port, just in case)
full boltons, including 65mm throttle body
I realize I interrupt myself a lot with the parentheses, and I think I do it in real life and forget what I'm talking about.. Maybe I'd make a good professor some day! I hope I'm not making this more confusing, just tell me to shut up if it's too much all at once.
One more thing I saw just today: a lot of the engines claim to have ridiculously low mileage, especially the imported ones. A thing to check is to take off the exhaust mani and check the ports to see if there's oil in them--a clear sign that it burns oil and probably doesn't have 45k miles like they're claiming. Also, take off at least the front bank valve cover, and look at the head--it should be clean. If it's black and junked up, that's not something that's normal/good on a KL.
If you can't find a G4 motor, the Milly would be my next bet. I'm not sure about on the KL, but I know on the FS between the DS and ZE, the DE had hydraulic lifters that weren't compatible with the more aggressive ZE cams that used solid lifters (well, now that I actually think about it, I believe the first version of the FS was the FS01, which was from 93-97, and then the revision in 98 with the body style change in the 626 was called the FS-DE and included solid lifters. Just a technicality and it doesn't apply to you, anyway). I believe the G4 switched to solid lifters like the FS did, but that might be another thing to look into, but it's not a problem if you're building up the motor and can just ship yours off to Colt or wherever for a custom grind that would be better than the ZE anyway, and they can be compatible with hydraulic lifters. (it's up to you if you want hydraulic or solid lifters, PM me or google if you don't know the difference) Another thing about the cams is that I believe the KLZE didn't have a distributor, and as a result the cam doesn't have the trigger thing (I forget all the technical terms) on the end of the cam stick for the distributor, so that could be a potential complication of you have a DE and try to stick ZE cams in it.
Personally this is the motor I would build:
G4 base/block for the lightweight crank
ZE pistons
DE/ZE ported head (they're the same, basically)
custom cams
DE valvetrain, perhaps Interprep springs
ported G4 intake mani (for the EGR port, just in case)
full boltons, including 65mm throttle body
I realize I interrupt myself a lot with the parentheses, and I think I do it in real life and forget what I'm talking about.. Maybe I'd make a good professor some day! I hope I'm not making this more confusing, just tell me to shut up if it's too much all at once.
One more thing I saw just today: a lot of the engines claim to have ridiculously low mileage, especially the imported ones. A thing to check is to take off the exhaust mani and check the ports to see if there's oil in them--a clear sign that it burns oil and probably doesn't have 45k miles like they're claiming. Also, take off at least the front bank valve cover, and look at the head--it should be clean. If it's black and junked up, that's not something that's normal/good on a KL.
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So I think I will hold out for a 626 KL-G4 since they are OB2 and have the EGR valve. That way I'll have a better shot at getting my OBD2 code plug thang to work properly and not have to worry about emissions. It would be sweet to not have to rely on registering my car to a non-Echeck household. Plus the G4 has a MAF sensor style like my P5, not those bulbous tubes with the bubble style (sorry, I don't know the term). Those just look like the restrict air flow like crazy! I know Kevins 13b has one like that.
I've seen a couple motors on eBay to compare pricing and such. So my current plan (always subject to change) is a KL-G4, an MX-6 transmission and an OBD2 complete wiring harness. From what I've read my current FS-DE transmission gears can swap right into an MX-6 tranny since they are the same, just a different bell housing. I would love to find a taller 5th gear than my current P5 tranny though.
I'm also debating if I would run two wire harnesses to the engine bay, like the Slotege fellow did. I think if I find an OBD2 wiring harness, I could simply add a 7 or 8 wire cable alongside the harness for a very clean install. But again, this will require much more research. I'm mostly thinking out loud. If all the talk about the KL swap starts to get annoying then unsubscribe. Haha!
Oh, and I would need to source an OBD2 ECU for the G4 as well. And hopefully a ZE IM eventually, though not necessary. Slotege said a curved neck would fit just fine and I wouldn't need to modify my throttle cable or anything. He used a straight neck mostly for asthetic reasons. And he also used Pace Setter headers and said they are a tight fit but clear everything just fine (man that will be weird for me to get used to saying my cars has headerS). I just don't care for Pace Setter and would rather find something of better quality. And as for the trans, I'll probably just get an aftermarket lightened flywheel and a stage 1 clutch. Might as well while I have the transmission out. I would just like to do as much work as possible to the motor while it is out of the car. But I'm not so sure about cams. I've never swapped cams before, though I'm sure it isn't anything I (we, ie friends) couldn't handle. But then again, I would like the motor to be fresh and reliable for years to come. Which brings me to the LSD. I've never owned a car with an LSD in it so I'm not too sure about the differences in them and how they work yada yada yada. More research to be done on my part. But it seems the MSP LSD's are relatively weak. I don't plan on drag racing the car or anything, just using it at Mid-Ohio once a month. So I'm not sure an LSD is absolutely necessary...?
I've seen a couple motors on eBay to compare pricing and such. So my current plan (always subject to change) is a KL-G4, an MX-6 transmission and an OBD2 complete wiring harness. From what I've read my current FS-DE transmission gears can swap right into an MX-6 tranny since they are the same, just a different bell housing. I would love to find a taller 5th gear than my current P5 tranny though.
I'm also debating if I would run two wire harnesses to the engine bay, like the Slotege fellow did. I think if I find an OBD2 wiring harness, I could simply add a 7 or 8 wire cable alongside the harness for a very clean install. But again, this will require much more research. I'm mostly thinking out loud. If all the talk about the KL swap starts to get annoying then unsubscribe. Haha!
Oh, and I would need to source an OBD2 ECU for the G4 as well. And hopefully a ZE IM eventually, though not necessary. Slotege said a curved neck would fit just fine and I wouldn't need to modify my throttle cable or anything. He used a straight neck mostly for asthetic reasons. And he also used Pace Setter headers and said they are a tight fit but clear everything just fine (man that will be weird for me to get used to saying my cars has headerS). I just don't care for Pace Setter and would rather find something of better quality. And as for the trans, I'll probably just get an aftermarket lightened flywheel and a stage 1 clutch. Might as well while I have the transmission out. I would just like to do as much work as possible to the motor while it is out of the car. But I'm not so sure about cams. I've never swapped cams before, though I'm sure it isn't anything I (we, ie friends) couldn't handle. But then again, I would like the motor to be fresh and reliable for years to come. Which brings me to the LSD. I've never owned a car with an LSD in it so I'm not too sure about the differences in them and how they work yada yada yada. More research to be done on my part. But it seems the MSP LSD's are relatively weak. I don't plan on drag racing the car or anything, just using it at Mid-Ohio once a month. So I'm not sure an LSD is absolutely necessary...?
CheeseHelmet
Member
I'd love an LSD for winter driving...
I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but if you're putting down 200whp you might have to deal with a lot more torque-steer.
I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but if you're putting down 200whp you might have to deal with a lot more torque-steer.
Thanks for the info, Cheese. I doubt I'll ever get up to 200whp with a DE or G4, I'm hoping for 170whp after all the mods so I don't think I'll have to contend with torque steer too much. I've felt torque steer in my friends MS3 on 28lbs of boost with the traction control off. That would suck in the winter. haha
Like I said, I would mainly use it for circuit racing. Not much, if any, drag racing.
Like I said, I would mainly use it for circuit racing. Not much, if any, drag racing.
PrinceValorum
Member
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- 95 626 FS, 89 Toyota Derux 4x4
A VAF? The DE has one, and from what I hear, it's restrictive. The G4 is supposed to have the MAF iirc.
The Probe guys put the 626 5th gear in cus it's taller. You know, the Probe is a race car and the 626 isn't, I guess..
ZE IM will require port matching (square ZE ports versus oval/round G4 ports) plus it doesn't have the EGR that you talked about earlier. I was going to say I don't know how hard it would be to drill a hole in it to put one in, but apparently it doesn't even have a space for one. I just looked on the DE vs ZE vs G4 page and the conclusion seems to be that the G4 is the best flowing IM with EGR, and if you already have a G4 motor, why not use that IM? You can still port and knife edge it, and should get some gains! Unless it doesn't fit under your hood? H00d sk00p!
I think they're supposed to offer the best performance gain (while sounding the worst?), but you could also try the Hotshot headers, or something else. Go custom! Fabricate the first ever LMS KL longtube headers!
You're worried about swapping cams but not about switching the gears in a tranny? I've never done either, but personally the tranny sounds about 100x harder to me. Besides, I've got all the literature on how to remove and replace cams.
Personally I would not put one on and then I'd see how it is. You can always add one later without too much extra work, right? Or am I on the pipe?
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