Jackson Racing Supercharger?

[Keith@FP]

Turbo740, I hope your boost target is about 4 psi. Above that, you are far out of the efficiency range for the M45. On the 1.8 Miata motors, the M45 is hard pressed to put out 6 psi and air temperatures run above 100C. The water/air ICs used by JR on the Miata will bring the intake charge down a bit on the first dyno pull, less on the second and not at all on the third as the coolant and IC get heatsoaked. Running on the 2.0, you'll simply be heating the air and probably spinning the blower over its redline.

I'd highly recommend you reconsider your decision to go with the M45 instead of a bigger setup. The initial purchase price of the blower is irrelevant when you consider the amount of work you'll be doing.

Keith

 

[turbo740]

Hey G,

Why are you so upset? You've got a post right above yours from a guy (me) who's been looking into the feasibility of a Supercharger kit (and over halfway through design, almost ready for production) for our cars and all you can do is b**** that the other guys are still praising turbos. Turbos are good. Diesels are good. Automatics (some) are good. Eveything is good if you use it the right way and understand what you will get from it.

Ask away...you got your answer to your original post. The Jackson racing Miata kit won't work. That's all you ever asked. You've never approached the idea from a creative standpoint and said, "How can I do this...how can I make a supercharger work?" Then you slammed turbos and expected to not get slammed back. It's silly. If we all act like adults, we can work together to get something good to happen.

I'm not trying to flame you or make you look bad. Just want you to relax, get the chip off your shoulder, and maybe we can have an intelligent conversation about S/C's on Protege's and maybe even have some fun building your car up to beat an MP3 with an FM kit! These other guys (the "turbo guys" on the board, or the "Darkside" if you prefer) have been a great help to me in considering the design aspects of my supercharger application and I appreciate the knowledge they bring.

As I said before, above all, have fun.

 

[turbo740]

Thanks Kieth, I'll take it under consideration.

I'm really not looking for more than 5psi. I'm not sure the stock fuel system with FMU is really ready for anything more anyway. I've already considered using an M62 or an M90 but I've had this M45 sitting around for a while collecting dust. My design will be easily adapted to either size blower so it won't present too many additional obstacles down the road.

And we all know dynos are not good to any intercoolers and don't reflect real world driving!
Jackson's s/c also sits right above the exhaust manifold. I'm sure that can't help.

 

[Equinox]

Ummm...Probe and Protege. FS 2.0...seems kind of the same as your comparisons, Equinox.

Not flaming, but this an unfair thing to say. That's like calling a Vette a piece of s*** because it had a 350 in it for 20+ years with just some intake, cam, and head changes.

we're not saying they are pieces of s***, I'm just going on how up to date in technology the engines are.

 

[Equinox]

1. Piston engines are antiquated. Electric will be the future.
2. Wrong! More cars are supercharged today than turbocharged.
3. Turbo timers don't restore your cooked oil.
4. Silicone everything! I don't think so!
5. Fuel injected engines are more RELIABLE. So your wrong again!
6. You made no sense in response to this one???
7. You've never driven around a corner.

I hope this will reply suitable to your listed comments. Your not dissing me at all. I'm more than interested in any intellegent comments or ideas.

G.

1. I'm not about to argue electric engines
2. Any proof? Not to mention what Keith said - it's easier to turn up the boost, and break it.
3. I was talking about red hot manifolds.
4. I've seen it, why not.
5. More reliable yes, but it costs more to repair when it does break - it's what you are saying with turbos, we shouldn't use them cause they are expensive when they break...that's why you just take care of the car. it's not so horrible to spend just a little and get so much more out of the turbo
7. I autocross regularly in SCCA sponsored events, with Kuhmo Ecstas =)

 

[mazdamp3_18]

actually there is a lot of very good applications for superchargers ... i personally am waiting for a kit to come out for my mp3... but my cousin works for aston martin drivetrain and he does all the tuning for ford mercury and the sort...

you guys mat remember about a year ago there was a v6 miata in motor trend .. my cousin did that ... also the v8 focus .. he did a v8 awd focus .. b/c the ford escape drivetrain is a simple install on a focus...

but to my point .. he is finishing a f250 project that is a supercharged v8 extended cab and short box... it dynoed at 550 hp ... i think the only true benifit with superchargers are on v6's or larger... i rode in the f250 and it was very fast .. he said it was faster than the lightning in the 1/4 mile... the reason i want a supercharger in my mp3 is because i like to differ from the croud... and there is less maintenence on a supercharger and i like the linear power and sound of a supercharger...

it seems like today every one wants a turbo or is trying to go n/a... why not differ from the croud... and as long as you enjoy it in the process why not ...

 

[mp3boy1984]

no offence or anything to keith but everyone who is looking at a supercharger should not listen to keith. I mean no dissing keith at all he may know his stuff. However, he is a representative from flying miata which produces a turbo kist, so of course he is going to sell the idea of a turbo and to stay away from superchargers. I just wanted to point that out. Once again i am not dissing keith at all i am just pointing out the facts.

 

[KzA]

it seems like today every one wants a turbo or is trying to go n/a... why not differ from the croud... and as long as you enjoy it in the process why not ...

Maybe this is becuase not many people are willing to put in the immense time and effort in order to create a supercharger kit on their own...I really think it all comes down to performance...We are lucky enough to have turbo geniuses like Terry and FM and BEGI working all the time in order to perfect turbo kits for our cars, but where are the SC guys? I'm sure if someone posted here tommorow from a reputable company that they have a SC kit that will put 220 to the ground, people would be all over it..Turbocharger..Supercharger..I really don't think it matters..All people are looking for is the best solution for our cars andour motors, and, presently, that seems to be turbo..Just look at the advancements the turbo community here in the last 6-8 months..I just really DON'T see a supercharger being able to put up the numbers like Terrys Stage 4 kit, or any of the other real strong kits that have been recently introduced.
Show me a supercharger kit that will, and I'll be on your side of the fence quicker than you can say PSSSST!

 

[Keith@FP]

I don't think I ever said that you shouldn't go with a super. Just not the one off the Miata from Jackson Racing. It's too small, in my opinion.

We do superchargers as well. Not for the Protege, but they do have correct applications. As I said before, define your goals and then design a system to suit. Do some research and don't base your decision on what you read online

Keith

 

[70]

I don't think I ever said that you shouldn't go with a super. Just not the one off the Miata from Jackson Racing. It's too small, in my opinion.

We do superchargers as well. Not for the Protege, but they do have correct applications. As I said before, define your goals and then design a system to suit. Do some research and don't base your decision on what you read online

Keith

I was just about to say the very same thing. I never read that you didn't like the supercharger...

Oh well...

 

[FuNwaGoN]

to each their own and to each application it's own. I mean look at the S2000 with the vortech blower. It bumps the hp by over 100hp. Look at that same car with a turbo. tons more work and fewer people with it but the cars have seen more than a 300+ hp increase in some cases. Not saying this is all from just the turbo because one of the main differences between superchargers and turbos is tuning. Turbos are trickier to tune correctly and a supercharger is more of a dial it in and your done kind of thing.(meaning not alot of adjustment. Some cars I say turbo all the way and some I wouldn't even think of a turbo. Why? because it would just be to big of a headache. Hey honest answer. Nothing technical about it. Just for instance. My Lightning now that I have decided to keep it is most likely going to get a Supercharger. Not sure which one yet. Probably Powerdyne. On the flip side if I was to keep my P5 I would go with a turbo. I think alot of my reason falls behind this. A turbo on the P5 would give me in the range of 250 hp when a supercharger may be lucky to get me to 200 hp. There are several kits out for the P5 with Turbos and for superchargers there aren't any. The truck on the other hand already has 300 hp and a supercharger would take it closer to the 400 range. With the truck there are many superchargers available and only maybe 1 turbo kit. So like I said before I choose turbo or SC for each application based on Availabilty of kits and what a majority of people with similiar vehicles are using. Also each choice produces the desired affects for the application. I did not base my decision what so ever on possible performance I only went by the performance I want with the factors I want. ie. Parts availabilty and technical help, mass produced kits, no internal mods and only a few external. I think this is what Keith was trying to get across by saying look at the application and what you want from it. I mean if I wanted to I could be like this guy on the lightning boards with a Twin turbo kit on his full blown race lightning and be puching over 900hp. I think the strongest SC Lightning I have seen was around 600 hp and it had alot of engine work done to it. Well as it always goes to each their own. Just don't let threads like this take a personal twist. I mean we are here to help each other out and if you go back and look you will see who was helping and who was just arguing.

 

[Keith@FP]

to each their own and to each application it's own. I mean look at the S2000 with the vortech blower. It bumps the hp by over 100hp. Look at that same car with a turbo. tons more work and fewer people with it but the cars have seen more than a 300+ hp increase in some cases. Not saying this is all from just the turbo because one of the main differences between superchargers and turbos is tuning. Turbos are trickier to tune correctly and a supercharger is more of a dial it in and your done kind of thing.(meaning not alot of adjustment.

That's a common misconception. If you're using electronic boost control, then yes there's more tuning to do. The fuel and timing control is no more complex for a turbo than for a super - IF you do it right. For some reason, it's considered more acceptable to take shortcuts with superchargers.

The Vortech used on the S2000 is a centrifugal supercharger. It's a hybrid, half turbo and half supercharger. Think of it as a belt-driven turbocharger. It has very different boost characteristics to a normal supercharger. Personally, I think it's not a good match to the S2000 engine as it doesn't bump up bottom-end torque in the same way. I would have gone for a twin-screw but there may have been packaging considerations. By the way, there has been a centrifugal SC setup installed on a P5 by Area51. The car was at SEMA.

As a general rule, turbochargers will make more peak hp than supers. It's what they're good at. However, they'll deliver the power in a different manner - and that's where personal preference comes in.

Keith

 

[Tonpow]

I agree. The vortech S2000 is a bad solution for a daily driver. They took a car that had anemic low end and mid range, but great top end, and gave it more top end. And all that high tech for mucho $$$.

In my opinion, a well engineered turbo system would suit the car much better.

 

[FuNwaGoN]

Well I know I am out of my league when talking with you guys on this topic but was just trying to share and maybe help out. I do agree with the tuning assessment Keith it is just like you said though with the shortcuts being used more on superchargers I am ssuming because these shortcuts are safe with a certain amount of boost but not anymore. I also agree that this is because turbos are capable of as you said being tunred up to BOOM level very easily. As far as the S2000 goes it is all a matter of driving style. I personally love the way the S2k is docile at low revs and becomes a beast at high revs. This becomes more exagerrated with the SC on it. True and I know this about this application. Maybe I just used a bad example with the S2k but that is still the setup I would go with. I have driven one and it is freaking awesome. All you have to do is keep the revs up and you are there. For me it was usually just a matter of dropping a gear or so from wear I would normally want to be and walah! POWER. Hope you guys got my point though. Meaning the decision should be based on what you want or expect from the system and what you are willing to go through to get it. Meaning if no one makes the system SC or turbo for your car or truck then are you willing or even able to do the R&D to get it to work properly?????? Like I said one main thing for my decision would be premade kits. Let somebody who is in the business like Keith or Spoolin work out all of the kinks and glitches and then buy everything I would need from them and bolting everything on instead of putting together parts from this vendor and that and having this shop make this and that one make that and then istalling only to run into more problems. Like I always say this is just my .02. If you like what I am saying consider yourself 2 cents richer if you don't then leave the pennies on the ground for the next person to find.

 

[turbo740]

Supercharger size (FM Kieth?)

Back to the aforementioned assessment of supercharger size. I have a few things still standing out in my mind. This isn't a challenge or anything, I just want some more reasoning because, if I can get a decent M62 for a good price and see the reason behind doing it, I'll consider it.

My problem arises with the argument that the M45 is too small. It can flow 320 cfm at 14,000 rpm. At that shaft speed, it compresses the same amount of air and, at the same pressure, should theoretically create the same heat (which the Eaton heat charts seem to reflect.) This engine, even if it's 110% efficient and makes it's peak power at 6500 RPM still requires less than 300cfm.

On top of that, the M62 draws more power to spin it. If the same area/efficiency intercooler is employed with each system, bringing the intake charge to the same temp, why will the M62 make more power?

These are the nagging questions that my "expert" gives me. He's the engineer. He designs HVAC systems so he knows a little bit about thermodynamic air/liquid properties and flow vs. pressure. I'm lost when it comes to that stuff. I'm just looking for answers to his questions so I can make an educated decision about whether a larger supercharger is necessary.

Thanks.

 

[Keith@FP]

If your blower is passing 320 CFM of air at its redline, and your engine is sucking 300 CFM - you're basically not creating any boost at all. You're just heating the air Remember that you're giving thTo create boost, you need to more MORE air than the engine will suck on its own - to put it crudely. Have you read "Supercharged!"? Recommended reading if you're going to roll your own and written by my friend Corky Bell. Page 54, "Calculating the size of a Roots supercharger".

There's a wrong assumption in there as well. You're going to have a difficult time bringing the intake charge down to even close to ambient, given the temperature of the output of the charger. The M62 will heat the air LESS for a given CFM, meaning you'll have a much easier time getting temperatures into a reasonable range.

Going to a real-world example, the M45 on a 1.8l Miata engine with an air/water IC and running 8 psi of boost. Our engine computers have an overheat protection mode if the intake charge hits 100C (212F). The supercharger output never gets this cool, even on the first dyno run before heatsoaking the IC. We did 26 consecutive pulls on a 12 psi turbo car yesterday without heatsoak problems - because the turbo outlet temperature was so much lower.

On our Miata supercharger kits for a 1.8 engine, we are planning to use a 1.2L twin-screw. That's 62% larger than the M45 and more efficient...

Keith

 

[turbo740]

Okay...I looked into it myself. I'll need to spin the M45 @ about 13,000 RPM to get about 310cfm at 7psi, to make about 200hp at the crank (that's a reasonable figure for me...don't really need more than that in this car for what I do with it.) Basically, the M45 at over 13,000 rpm is only equal (in flow/pressure) to the M62 at about 10,000 rpm, decreasing the temperature gain by about 10 degrees. Since, at their respective speeds, both "blowers" will require about 22hp to drive them, the 10 degree cooler air charge could provide a few extra hp, longer supercharger and belt life, and less noise. Point taken.

Now, who wants to trade an M45 for an M62? Just kidding. I'll just spin it faster until it blows up! If I were to ever consider producing a "kit", I'd probably go with the M62 for longevity and noise reasons, especially since it isn't that much bigger in overall external dimensions. For this one, I'll stick with the M45. Maybe I'll only get 165hp or so to the wheels...that's probably enough to at least scare the guy with an SLK230 on a NJ off ramp. And it'll surely be enough to keep me from complaining about how much slower the P5 is compared to my Jetta.

 

[turbo740]

But our engine "theoretically" requires less than 240 cfm at stock power...

 

[turbo740]

I'm with you here, Keith. I do agree...I'm just stuck on the idea that the M45 is acceptable for my needs.

I've read and reread "supercharged". I've done the math a hundred times. It seems to work out. Maybe (i'm sure) there's something I'm missing.

Maybe you'll just make a Screw S/C setup for the Protege and I won't have to worry about it!

Thanks for all the advice. You can expect some PM's in the near future for some more tips, if you don't mind.

 

[turbo740]

I'm looking for an M62 or Screw type S/C as you read this. Or I'm scrapping the project and buying an FM turbo kit. (2thumbs)

Now, what to do with the M45... (Maybe I'll get another Festiva...)