It's Time For A Rebellion, Better Yet A Revolution. My Guns Will Be Loaded!

One last note with regards to the turbo, back pressure, and draw. These properties have a direct effect on turbo longevity. Excessive limits of both causes wear on turbo thrust bearings. Thrust bearing failure is a common failure area for performance turbos.
 
3+5 said:
Yeah, I can see this as a big quality problem, or maybe not... My MS6 is stock and doesn't blow smoke so far at 5k miles. If it started to smoke tomorrow, I'd be all kinds of pissed and take it in and insist on repair. We've seen two guys in this thread get new turbos, and quite a few bitchin about it without follow up threads saying whether their problem was fixed or even if they'd been to the dealer at all yet. We've also seen some who say that the dealer's telling them it's normal, and one who seems to be made to jump through hoops verifying oil consumption, maybe in a buildup to be told "Sorry, there's nothing we can do, eh?" So we see the scattering of good and not so good treatment from dealers, which is pretty normal. The far extremes of dealerships actually have to be discarded in terms of figuring out if there's a problem Mazda can and should fix. Finally, (to me) the key to understanding the entire problem is the MS3 owner who reinstalled his stock pipes and the smoking actually went away.

On the one hand, if I were Mazda I'd tell you it should be expected, and recommend turbo upgrade in conjunction with exhaust mods. On the other hand, perhaps if I were Mazda I'd have done a right big exhaust in the first place and spec'd out a turbo with seals that matched. But, that wouldn't allow me to manufacture a car like the MS6/MS3 at the price, then would it? ...and guys would toss on an even bigger set of pipes and I might be facing the same problem anyhow. Of course, if I had three hands, there's the part where it sucks that you can't do basic warranty-safe mods and get more power without looking like a mosquito sprayer, and that hurts Mazdaspeed's rep from a tuning perspective. I would see this as most important, but it would be a tough sell to increase the performance of a part in case someone decided to modify another part of the system.

Bottom line is this: You mod your car, you go outside engineering specs. Exhaust mods on a MS6/MS3 will reduce the turbo seal pressure too far out of spec, and cause oil bypass and smoke. This may be surprising to some, but others, having done research have offered that it shouldn't be. IMO, unless you have a stock exhaust and your turbo leaks, Mazda shouldn't be responsible. If you installed a bigger turbo and blew up your motor because you didn't control the extra boost you wouldn't expect Mazda to cough up a new one. Technically, this is the same thing, and for that reason I have to disagree with the intent of the thread. I don't believe Mazda's seal design is responsible, at least not at this point in time.

Argue that an Evo or Subie wouldn't have this problem, and I say these aren't either one, they're Mazdas. Mod within limits or mod the limiting factors to compensate.

Not knocking the desire to mod, I have a modded 74 Vette. But with every mod I've done, I've taken into consideration the consequences of each, and built or beefed accordingly. I also base my decisions on lessons learned by Vette owners over the years. We're now learning those consequences, and how to base mod decisions in the MS6/MS3.

(yippy) I tried saying the same thing basically, but you said it 1000 times better. I now know if I want to mod my car, I'm doing everything at once, and not piece by piece. But a new house and paying off student loans comes first.
 
Never said it wasn't good for the turbo from a wear aspect to reduce back pressure. In fact I'm a firm believer in better engine breathing. I only said that the seals depend on that back pressure to do their job. Reduce it, and you've exceeded the limits of the turbo design, in that respect. Good or bad design on Mazda's part is a subjective call. It seems to work fine with the factory exhaust, as it was designed to do. So very simply, Mazda really can't be faulted if the cars are modded causing turbo seal leaks. The turbos that some people are recieving (only those with aftermarket exhausts) have been gifts, IMO.
 
Update on my smoking issue

Hy!

I have now completed the oil consumption program and as I thought the oil consumption is normal so the dealer said there is nothing they can do. So I called mazda canada this morning and open a case. They will contact the dealer to see what they have done and call me back within 2 days

here is the result View attachment Oil result.pdf

Can we link to youtube? i could upload the movies i have and show you the smoking
 
The following are my thoughts on how the smoking issue and aftermarket exhaust components are related. Flame away...

The 2.3 L DISI turbocharged MZR engine is boosted by a Hitachi K04 turbo that is suspected of having faulty turbo seals. There are numerous reports of replaced turbos for this problem and an excellent write up including pictorial evidence in the Forced Induction section of the mazdas247.com forum. It would interesting if those that have replaced their turbos with stock or aftermarket units had experienced smoking that had stopped upon replacement of the turbo.
This missive addresses the belief by some that the aftermarket exhaust modifications (DP, RP, CBE) somehow cause the engine to smoke. The smoke in question is a bluish smoke indicative of burning oil. Contrary to most people’s understanding, smoke of any kind is particulate (solid phase material) and not gaseous.
Changing the stock exhaust does not change the nature of the materials leaving the exhaust side of the turbo. Immediately after the exhaust exits the turbo however, there are dramatic changes with a different exhaust system. An aftermarket performance exhaust typically will have larger diameter tubing, high flow or no catalytic converter, and a high flow muffler and resonator system. All of these elements work to allow the exhaust to flow as freely as possible out of the motor. They do not however, change the material before it leaves the motor.
The 2.3 L DISI turbocharged MZR engine that comes in the Mazdaspeed6, Mazdaspeed3 and the CX-7 is outfitted with a restrictive DP containing two catalytic converters and connected to a restrictive exhaust system. A three-way catalytic converter has three simultaneous tasks:
1. Reduction of nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen: 2NOx → xO2 + N2
2. Oxidation of (non greenhouse gas, but toxic) carbon monoxide to less harmful (greenhouse gas) carbon dioxide: 2CO + O2 → 2CO2
3. Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons to carbon dioxide and water: 2CxHy + (2x+y/2)O2 → 2xCO2 + yH2O
All of these exhaust elements result in increase exhaust gas temperatures relative to a typical aftermarket exhaust components. Replacement of any or all of the stock exhaust components will result in:
1. Faster exhaust gas flow
2. Faster expansion of exhaust gases
3. Cooler exhaust temperatures
a. more efficient exhaust gas expansion
b. shorter residence time of hot exhaust gases in the system
If our engines were burning oil from leaking turbo seals, it is likely that this hydrocarbon particulate could be oxidized to gaseous material all or in part during travel through the stock exhaust system for the following reasons:
1. reduction of the NOx gases will produce oxygen which will react with hydrocarbon particulate
2. Both CO and CO2 oxidizing materials that can oxidize particulate hydrocarbon
3. Oxidation of particulate hydrocarbon increases in efficiency with temperature, i.e. r = kt, where r is rate, k is Boltzmann’s constant and t is temperature
4. Increased residence time in the exhaust components will promote oxidation of particulate hydrocarbon materials.
Replacement of the stock exhaust components will result in less residence time, cooler temperatures, and reduced or eliminated catalytic converter function resulting in less oxidizing media. The cooler temperatures afforded with improved flow (aftermarket exhaust) will allow for condensation of hot exhaust products to solid particles or liquid droplets, in other words, smoke.
In short, an aftermarket exhaust will make your car smoke only if the engine is producing the materials (burnt oil) for smoke to form. In our case the oil is most likely coming from turbo seal problems. In any case, the exhaust does not cause issue resulting in the smoke, it just causes you to see it.
 
I was talking to Jordan at CPE today and he said he was researching the old WRX/STI posts regarding a similar smoking issue to the Speed6. Their solution was to use a heavier weight oil. They were using 5w30 like us but switched to 10w40 and that cleared things up for some of them. Might be worth a try if you're changing your oil soon and have the smoking issue. If it works, MAD PROPS to Jordan and CPE for the solution...
 
I was talking to Jordan at CPE today and he said he was researching the old WRX/STI posts regarding a similar smoking issue to the Speed6. Their solution was to use a heavier weight oil. They were using 5w30 like us but switched to 10w40 and that cleared things up for some of them. Might be worth a try if you're changing your oil soon and have the smoking issue. If it works, MAD PROPS to Jordan and CPE for the solution...
It doesn't work....
 
Finally almost over

So after having to open a case with mazda canada after my dealer told there was nothing they could do for my problem Mazda Canada called the dealer and forced them to check other things and guess what they asked them to check... The turbo!!!

So mazda is aware that there is a problem but dont want to admit it openly.
So I will be getting a new turbo and cat.
 
Car's Not smokin, but I am!!

FWIT, I just double-checked my stock setup; no leaks, minimal oil at turbo -into - intercooler, none in throttle plate. No smoke. Geez, gonna cancel my bid on that A/M cat back setup. BTW, remind me not to add ANY A/M part unless Mazda approves/sanctions it. Kinda funny how the ONLY people having probs are with car ALTERED FROM HOW MAZDA SOLD IT TO YOU. Yet, lotta bitchin about how it's Mazda's fault. Heres a thought - IF YOU CAN DESIGN A BETTER CAR THAN MAZDA, APPLY FOR A JOB THERE - IF NOT LEAVE IT STOCK. If you alter it, assume responsibility. Do you realize that those of us who are happy with the Speed 6, STOCK, are getting a bad rap on our cars from others, because of people that have no technical skill/aptitude and take it upon themselves to change their cars? Do you realize your car was good until you F*&@'ed with it? Do you realize Mazda, the company you had so much faith in when you bought that car, now has to overcome the obstacle of YOU? Quit whining. Add-ons, that are not OEM, alter your car, better or worse. Deal with it.
 
FWIT, I just double-checked my stock setup; no leaks, minimal oil at turbo -into - intercooler, none in throttle plate. No smoke. Geez, gonna cancel my bid on that A/M cat back setup. BTW, remind me not to add ANY A/M part unless Mazda approves/sanctions it. Kinda funny how the ONLY people having probs are with car ALTERED FROM HOW MAZDA SOLD IT TO YOU. Yet, lotta bitchin about how it's Mazda's fault. Heres a thought - IF YOU CAN DESIGN A BETTER CAR THAN MAZDA, APPLY FOR A JOB THERE - IF NOT LEAVE IT STOCK. If you alter it, assume responsibility. Do you realize that those of us who are happy with the Speed 6, STOCK, are getting a bad rap on our cars from others, because of people that have no technical skill/aptitude and take it upon themselves to change their cars? Do you realize your car was good until you F*&@'ed with it? Do you realize Mazda, the company you had so much faith in when you bought that car, now has to overcome the obstacle of YOU? Quit whining. Add-ons, that are not OEM, alter your car, better or worse. Deal with it.

Hi. Welcome to the first few days this thread was posted.
 
Hi

Sorry I only responded a year after first post...as the thread has continued, I feel my recent post is still relevant....I was not asleep during the past year,it's just that I finally had time to start researching my car AFTER I bought it.
 
what's that supposed to mean?

Hi. Welcome to the first few days this thread was posted.

I see that mostly my thoughts on A/M 'upgrades' (i.e. problems) have already been addressed, but I wanted to offer my own perspectives.
Sorry, HATE, that I am not biting my nails for someone to reply....
 
FWIT, I just double-checked my stock setup; no leaks, minimal oil at turbo -into - intercooler, none in throttle plate. No smoke. Geez, gonna cancel my bid on that A/M cat back setup. BTW, remind me not to add ANY A/M part unless Mazda approves/sanctions it. Kinda funny how the ONLY people having probs are with car ALTERED FROM HOW MAZDA SOLD IT TO YOU. Yet, lotta bitchin about how it's Mazda's fault. Heres a thought - IF YOU CAN DESIGN A BETTER CAR THAN MAZDA, APPLY FOR A JOB THERE - IF NOT LEAVE IT STOCK. If you alter it, assume responsibility. Do you realize that those of us who are happy with the Speed 6, STOCK, are getting a bad rap on our cars from others, because of people that have no technical skill/aptitude and take it upon themselves to change their cars? Do you realize your car was good until you F*&@'ed with it? Do you realize Mazda, the company you had so much faith in when you bought that car, now has to overcome the obstacle of YOU? Quit whining. Add-ons, that are not OEM, alter your car, better or worse. Deal with it.

I tend to agree with you. Mine is stock and is perfect.
 
I tend to agree with you. Mine is stock and is perfect.


Well. I don't agree. My car has 32,000 miles and it creaks, rattles, and has had major repair. Specifically the transfer case leak, after which the tech that repaired it told me to "watch it", because he has not done many of those repairs. The paint was peeling off the side mirror, which they replaced the entire mirror assembly. The clutch is F***d and the TSB did not come out until after I had 12K on the Od. I cannot get 93 octane, so the performance is hindered by the programming.

After only 1 year it has degraded beyond even my Mistu Eclipse GSX after 120K. I am not impressed by the quality. This year of owing the car has passed with more trouble and tribulations than the two years I own my 04 6. I think they pushed the engineering to meet a marketing deadline and did not achieve a solid product. As an aerospace engineer I have seen this before

Something else the tech told me was that this engine is a Duratech derivative and the cams are not keyed. The nut on the end is the only thing keeping the cam from slipping. So this will be an issue at XXX horsepower. He also mentioned that the oil filter cap will crack at some point. Most will crack at the base radiating outward parallel with the flange relief.
 
Here's a list of VINs from M6club that have smoking. Not all are modded but most are. There are a total of 42 and several have had their turbos replaced. If you're VIN isn't listed, please add it to the bottom.
100191
100629
100675
100951
101942
101988
102137
102150
102175
102229
102824
102842
102865
102982
103055
103219
103295
103356
103371
103388
103435
103631
103676
103687
104065
104208
104301
104996
105007
105124
106024
106548
106655
106809
107036
107201
107539
107613
107699
108971
102xxx
107***
 
Well. I don't agree. My car has 32,000 miles and it creaks, rattles, and has had major repair. Specifically the transfer case leak, after which the tech that repaired it told me to "watch it", because he has not done many of those repairs. The paint was peeling off the side mirror, which they replaced the entire mirror assembly. The clutch is F***d and the TSB did not come out until after I had 12K on the Od. I cannot get 93 octane, so the performance is hindered by the programming.

After only 1 year it has degraded beyond even my Mistu Eclipse GSX after 120K. I am not impressed by the quality. This year of owing the car has passed with more trouble and tribulations than the two years I own my 04 6. I think they pushed the engineering to meet a marketing deadline and did not achieve a solid product. As an aerospace engineer I have seen this before



I have to agree here. It is unfortunate, but I am glad to hear that others have had problems. I suppose I am one of the unlucky ones who got a questionable product. I only wish Mazda and the dealer would stand behind the product better.

The quality of this product (and this is NOT the only Mazda I have) has me thanking the Maker that I only leased this vehicle. August, 2008 (much like January, 2009) cannot come soon enough.

M
 
well I have a 2006 sport with no issues what so ever. Are you saying that I am lucky? Or do you think you have a lemon?

Also...considering 5000 of these were built in 2006..I would hardly say that 42 that are smokers is really a huge number. I think alot has to do with the way you drive and service your car. Otherwise why has mine been flawless other than the re-flash?

You beat on anything hard enough and it will degrade faster...not saying you did this...:)
 

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