Is FWD really that bad?

[mazdamobile]

transmission

One thing that I think people have been avoiding in this thread is the transmissions, lets's put it this way, I've heard of 400+ HP miatas and rx-7's, but no proteges. FWD trannys are weaker thank RWD.

 

[ZoomZoomH]

FWD trannys are weaker thank RWD.

negative, the strength of the transmission has nothing to do which wheels it drives.

the only way that statement could be true is that car builders don't try to build that strong of a FWD transmission because it doesn't make sense to make a car that put down that much power to the front wheels, it would be almost undrivable (torque steer anyone?)

 

[TurfBurn]

And to date no one has wrecked a tranny that I know of on the Protege's or a lot of the other cars due to too much power (spun shafts etc...) just because of shifting "issues"

Keep in mind that there are quite a few 400-500 hp Eclipses and Talons and Civics and the like... which are all FWD.

 

[YuYuRena]

One thing that I think people have been avoiding in this thread is the transmissions, lets's put it this way, I've heard of 400+ HP miatas and rx-7's, but no proteges. FWD trannys are weaker thank RWD.

disagree. they can make the fwd transmission as strong as any other drivetrain lay-out transmission. The reason they don't make it as strong to go all the way up to 400+HP is because you don't see that many stock FWD make that much power off the factory floor. So why waste the money to make it that good, when you can save money and increase profit by making the transmission just good enough for the purpose.

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

when you fwd outruns and out corners an audi quattro, your doing something right.

 

[Installshield 2]

when you fwd outruns and out corners an audi quattro, your doing something right.

Not sure what you are getting at...Audi what? ...a standard A4 is heavy and softly sprung...This has absolutely nothing to do with FWD vs. the world...And audi's Quattro in a lesser model, such as the standard A4, is about as close to FWD as AWD gets...

 

[Installshield 2]

One thing that I think people have been avoiding in this thread is the transmissions, lets's put it this way, I've heard of 400+ HP miatas and rx-7's, but no proteges. FWD trannys are weaker thank RWD.

I do see what you are getting at...pertaining simply to an actual transmission vs. a transaxle...It is much easier and cheaper to make a transmission stronger...

The mazda's you are mentioning do not wield FS's, which is were those numbers are coming from...neither has a famously powerful gearbox though...

But the fact that a single case is trying to wrangle a slew of shafts, gears, a diff, and all the syncro's bearings etc all being crammed into the front of an engine bay transversely...leaves little room for beefing up parts....

But it can be done...Gambella will turn your 996 turbo into a 900whp beast, and that thing has what is fundamentally still a transaxle...albeit significantly different than a FWD one...

 

[mazdamobile]

The point I was trying to make (and maybe I didn't word it correctly), was that if FWD was that good (which in my opinion, RWD and AWD are better) we would see more real sports cars with FWD. Think about it, RX-7, Supra, Skyline, Evo's, Corvettes, BMW's...none of these are FWD. If FWD was really up to par with RWD and AWD more automakers would be turning out high-power, high-performance FWD cars, right?

 

[mr_tx3]

No flaming, no bulls***, I want real well thought out answers. How bad is FWD really? (For road corse/auto X/windy mountain road at high speed)

I know it understeers a bit, what can be done to counter that? Is there an flaw in FWD that cannot be overcome by suspention / lsd's? Do LSD's help reduce the understeer? Can a Protege be a competitive car without major drivetrain modifications (ie. xelderx) ? Or is modifiying it with hope of it being fast(ish) (like wrx competion, not in the straight, in the turns) really pointless or can it be done (without AWD converson or any of that stuff?)

Thanks (nana)

i pull a 12.7 down the 1/4 mile and im fwd i s*** on v8s skylines in my 1.8ltr dohc 16v turbo (thumb) (hah)

 

[TurfBurn]

the simple fact as to why FWD is not typically used for "sports" cars (I put it in quotes because above corvettes and the like were listed in that grouping... and well FWD econoboxes like ours can often outhandle them) because it takes the "driving" element and puts it on the steering wheels. The rubber can only "do" so much, only has so many units of "grip". So for every unit you use for steering you only have so many left over for cornering/driving the vehicle. So hence putting the driving forces on a different set of wheels than the steering forces allows you to have more grip available for cornering. Also, the weight transfer helps RWD during accelerationg. A lot of the above goes out the window with AWD because AWD handling comes in large part due to the ability to do 4 wheel power drifting, and the added advantages to having 4 driving wheels when traction is iffy.

 

[chuyler1]

In addition to weight transfer there is also weight distribution. Its obvious that mid-engine sports cars take the prize in that area but RWD takes a close second far above FWD because the transmission is pulled farther back and there is more hardware in the rear of the car to drive the wheels. AWD will have good weight distribution also, but at the expense of added weight. FWD places everything in the front of the car so not only to they loose out on the added traction during acceleration, they lurch forward more during hard braking which doesn't help cornering.

You could ask yourself "why don't they make a mid-engine FWD car or a rear-engine FWD car?" and I honestly can't answer that other than to say that it would be dumb.

 

[Installshield 2]

One main advantage to FWD is simply the added traction the engine weight hanging between the front wheels gives...Most RWD only cars are a joke in snow, and some can't even be driven in the rain...Its just more appealing for a economy car to be able to potentially still get you around in bad weather...

In terms of weight distribution...It turns out that more front engine RWD cars are closer to 50/50 than any other platform...The E-46 3 series from BMW, Mazda Miata, Mazda RX-8, and many others are all near 50/50 or dead on...But breaking it down further leads to some arguments...Mid engine'd cars are usually more rear weight biased, but 90% of the vehicle weight can be located to "within the wheelbase", which means there is less wieght in front of the front wheels, and behind the rear wheels...which definately helps...So even though an Enzo doesn't have 50/50 weight distribution, well over the majority of that weight is right in the middle of the car...The distribution of weight can be said to have less "distribution", if that makes any sense at all...

Now the fact that a true rear engined (as in behind ther rear wheels) car exists is amazing...I have taken plenty of engineering classes, and litterly every one of them that was remotely related to automotive design, be it physics, Eng design, or structural analysis, they all point to the 911 as one of the absolute worst engineering ideas of mankind...ever...on paper it is absolutely horrible...on paper it shows almost no advantages whatsoever, except for some straight line traction...But I am not about to argue with the fact that Porsche did it right, and there is no arguing that it is one of the best handling road cars on earth at this point...

So in the end, it is all up to preference...There are advantages to all of them...Some not as obvious as others...But car makers can take goof ball designs and make some serious machines out of it...Who knows whats coming with these heavy ass hybrids running high ouput V6's to front wheels, and 200bhp (if you can call it that) electric motors to the rear wheels...technically its AWD, but radically different than anything on the street right now...We will see how it works out within the next few years probably...

 

[anarchistchiken]

I love my protege, but if I had a choice of the exact same car in rwd, I'd take it in a second. RWD is just funner to drive, even if you dont think about racing. But there is a reason that vast majority of race cars out there are rwd. It's just better.

 

[PreFknLude_SiR]

Good arguments.. I think that RWD is more fun to drive; being able to kick the rear loose and then regaining traction. You can only do so much with FWD.

 

[BlueMonsta]

i pull a 12.7 down the 1/4 mile and im fwd i s*** on v8s skylines in my 1.8ltr dohc 16v turbo (thumb) (hah)

skylines are inline 6 man....


I'd take AWD over anything. RWD, oversteers in the snow (and I live in canada) (canada) . FF understeers (Dangerous when cornering, example after). 4WD (dunno, i just dun like the idea of part-time AWD, i probably didnt word this right).

I was turning from a city street onto a residental street. Normally, u'd go 30-40 max. It started poring 500M from the light. So I was like meh, whatever. Think I turned at 40 or a bit slower. The car understeered like a b****. Had to yank the e-brake. Scary s***.

 

[anarchistchiken]

AWD understeers almost as bad as FWD does. You just gotta now how to control it.

 

[Installshield 2]

based on what...There are so many AWD cars that behave so differently; you can't make claims like that for AWD cars in general...An R34 skyline behaves almost identically to a powerful RWD car...and it literally takes almost losing it to realize that AWD is even part of the package...its just there to save your ass, and put all the power on the ground...a 911 C4 will never understeer no matter what...ever...and its AWD...

but an A4 quattro will...I am just illutstrated that not every AWD car behaves like a front wheel drive...and it has nothing to do with FWD understeering...that is tuned in by the factory, plenty of FWD cars are tuned for crazy oversteer....its not that the platform fundamenataly is flawed...