Sagging sales on the Mazda 6 are more of a sector trend than the car itself. Nobody is buying sedans these days. Honda just announced production cuts to their new Accord. Crossovers have affected car sales with their popularity and as a result sedans are the losers here. Mazda is affected more because their sales numbers are small compared to the Big 3. ( Toyota, Honda, Nissan).
Interesting comparison: CX-5 vs NX
- Thread starter mooreaccurate72
- Start date
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- Plano, Texas, USA
Look at how much penalty Mazda6 has to pay on fuel economy for a turbo: from 29/26/35 to 26/23/31 combined/city/hwy!
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- State of Jefferson
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- 2017 CX-5 GT AWD+
They need to change the gearing, not just throw the turbo in.
Look at how much penalty the Camry has to pay for the V6: from 34/29/41 to 26/22/33.
In Mazda's case, the penalty is 3-4 MPG. In Toyota's case, the penalty is 7-8 MPG.
Besides, I've driven the CX-9 with the 2.5T and the Highlander with Toyota's 3.5L V6 and I would take the 2.5T all day long.
They don't need an 8 speed with their X motors (more efficient anywhere in the rev range).
A 2.5L version of the X motor would accomplish more power and efficiency. As would the diesel.
The new Toyota engines do get very good EPA ratings. However that V6 makes peak torque at 4700 RPM. Compare that to the mountain of torque that you get from the 2.5T Mazda engine at very low RPM and it will be easy to determine which will be a more fun daily driver.
I don't know what you're expecting Mazda to do here. I don't think they have any plans to make a V6 or I6 engine. So they will never probably be able to match that EPA rating on the Camry V6. What's great about the Mazda 2.5T, especially for enthusiasts, is that it is turbocharged. Which means it will be easy to make more power with the aftermarket. Of course that's not a benefit for the mass market consumers, but it is something to be excited about if you're an enthusiast.
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- Plano, Texas, USA
Well Toyota's 3.5L V6 has been on the market for a long time. It's definitely out of date and the only benefit of it is its reliability. I can't imagine if Toyota applies all the updates on its 2.5L I4 to its 3.5L V6 in later date if it really worth the hassle as the new 203~206 hp I4's do provide plenty of power and great fuel economy for most applications.
Mazda made it clear that it will NOT be making any V6's in the near future. They are focused on the 4 cylinders and SkyActiv X and turbocharging.
So one can pretty much rule out a V6. Not happening.
What can happen is the 2.5L turbo gas being put into the CX5. It will fit and the engine already exists in the CX9. The CX5 weighs 1,000 lbs lighter than the CX9 so MPG would still be good and the power and torque would make the CX5 move. Mazda6, as with any sedan, is not as popular as CUV's are today.
So one can pretty much rule out a V6. Not happening.
What can happen is the 2.5L turbo gas being put into the CX5. It will fit and the engine already exists in the CX9. The CX5 weighs 1,000 lbs lighter than the CX9 so MPG would still be good and the power and torque would make the CX5 move. Mazda6, as with any sedan, is not as popular as CUV's are today.
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- Plano, Texas, USA
Again, EPA fuel economy estimates on 2018 Mazda6 with 2.5L: 29/26/35; with 2.5T: 26/23/31 combined/city/hwy! Would you consider a 2.5T CX-5 AWD with EPA estimates of 23/21/26?
2018 Mazda6 2.5Ts EPA numbers are similar to Camrys with 10-year-old V6 but has 74 less hps on power with regular gas. People want more power would easily prefer Camry V6 or even an Accord V6, not a Mazda6 2.5T, because not only theres no replacement for displacement, but also a traditional naturally aspirated V6 is more reliable in the long run!
Why? Because the sedan market is dead and sedans like Camry and Accords are slowly dying out. People are willing to take a MPG hit for a CUV.
By 2022, LMC Automotive estimates 84% of the vehicles General Motors sells in the U.S. market will be some kind of truck or SUV. Ford's ratio of domestic SUV and truck sales will hit 90%; Fiat Chrysler's will notch a whopping 97 percent. SUVs eventually crossing the 50 percent threshold by themselves in the near future.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-disappearing-american-car/ar-AAvyRBr?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=iehp
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- Plano, Texas, USA
Actually I totally agree with you that compact CUVs are gradually replacing sedans in the car market and I've been saying the same thing in another thread. The reason I use Mazda6 and Camry comparison is 2019 Mazda6 has EPA fuel economy estimates available for both SA-G 2.5L and 2.5T so that we can easily to see the penalty on the same vehicle for more power. 2018 Camry has new 2.5L I4 and 8-speed step-automatic where 2019 RAV4 is going to have. EPA FE improvement on 2.5L from 2017 to 2018, 27/24/33 to 34/29/41, on Camry L is 26% which is unheard of. And this also comes with more power to boot, form 178 hp to 203~206 hp, a 14% increase! BTW these're all done by not using any thing fancy such as turbo、CVT、cylinder deactivation、or Homogeneous Charge Compression Ignition (HCCI). Now 2019 RAV4 is going to have these significant improvements both on power and fuel efficiency, added with industry-first "Rear Driveline Disconnect" and true off-road capabilities on its AWD system, I'm afraid even SkyActiv-X CX-5, which is a brand-new technology and several years away, can't compete with new RAV4 in these areas.
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Is the Rear Line Disconnect really new? Mitsubishi has had a setting for years called S-AWC Eco where the power goes to the front wheels exclusively and only when the front wheels spin does it then transmit power to the rear. It’s not exactly a true all time disconnect but it gives a option for those summer highway trips when you don’t need awd.
I really don't understand your fixation with 15 to 20 HP that is only seen at the top end of red line, the new 2.5 dynamic force engines have the same max torque as the 2.5 skyactiv G engines, and everyone knows torque is more important in daily driving that top end speed. Of course Adding two more gears over a 6 speed does help with fuel economy, but most 8 speed transmissions that have been manufactured and put into other makers vehicles have been hit or miss with reliability...and it isn't unbelievable that the new Camry improved its EPA rating so much over the previous 2017 model, seeing how the 2017 model was lagging behind because it was riding on a platform and using engine technology that was almost 15 years old...Toyota is notorious for riding their platforms out for a decade or more, so when they do go with a new platform the gains seem more substantial.
26% increase in fuel efficiency isn't unheard of, when skyactiv G came out in 2012 it boasted 30% increase in fuel efficiency over the MZR motor it replaced, and skyactiv X is going to boast another 30% increase in fuel efficiency over the G...I don't see how you can say that the skyactiv X won't compete with dynamic force engines when in real world testing they are only getting marginally better gas mileage than the skyactiv G's and the X's will be a 30% improvement over them. Again the 17 Camry was lagging way behind competition in EPA ratings, now the 18 is on par with rest of the competition.
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- Plano, Texas, USA
Based on horsepower equation, one horsepower = torque * RPM / 5252, 600 more rpm on Toyota's 2.5L for maximum horsepower definitely helps but it's limited. The point here is Toyota's new 2.5L is very efficient (40~41% thermal efficiency) hence 2018 Camry L is getting 26% improvement over 2017 Camry, and 17% better than 2018 Mazda6 2.5L on EPA FE estimates. More horsepower, 14% improvement over 2017 Camry, and 9% more than 2018 Mazda6 2.5L, is only an added benefit.
I've also compared 2018 Camry and 2018 Mazda6 in previous post. And 2018 Camry 2.5L definitely out-performs 2018 Mazda6 2.5L on fuel economy and horsepower. And no, 2017 Camry is not lagging behind on fuel economy in the same segment, and 8-speed step-automatic has been used in Lexus for many years.
Again, the HP is on the top end, it is negligible in daily driving...you keep comparing apples to oranges, Skyactiv G which is on its way out to the new dynamic force engines. A fair comparison is Skyactiv X vs dynamic force... the new dynamic force engines are a moderate improvement over the skyactiv G engines not a substantial improvement, and that either speaks volumes and is a testament of how ahead of it time the Skyactiv G was when it was developed almost a decade ago, or it is a indictment on Toyota that it took them almost a decade to catch up to the engine technology Mazda had....and FYI your naive if you think Toyota didn't heavily study the Skyactiv engines over the past 7 years its been in production. All auto manufacturers study their competitions technology...
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- Plano, Texas, USA
No, it was not 30%!
When SkyActiv Technology just came out in 2012/2013 for Mazda, the EPA FE estimates for 2014 Mazda3 with SkyActiv-G 2.5L automatic were improved only 20%, from 25/22/28 (which was very poor BTW in the same class at the time) to 30/27/36 mpg combined/city/hwy. The improvement on 2014 Mazda3 with new SkyActiv Technology at the time had only caught up to be compatible with other compact sedans in the same class.
When SkyActiv-X finally comes out few years later in mass production to compete with Toyota's 2.5L Dynamic Force I4, the production cost is high, the technology is new (mind you Mazda had to give up original Homogeneous Charge Compression Ignition (HCCI) design and settle for having spark plugs, hence now Spark Plug Controlled Compression Ignition (SPCCI)), and the long-term reliability is unknown. How many new-car buyers are willing to be a guinea pig for this brand-new technology SPCCI SkyActiv-X?
Are 27/24/33 mpg's on 2017 Camry 2.5L really "way behind competition" in the segment? For 2018 Camry 2.5L has the best combined and highway EPA MPGs in the same class not including hybrid. And Toyota achieves all of these by improving engine thermal efficiency, not by turbo、CVT、cylinder deactivation which sacrifice long-term reliability for fuel efficiency!
[table="width: 800, class: grid"]
[tr]
[td]2018[/td]
[td]Mazda6 Touring[/td]
[td]Mazda6 GT[/td]
[td]Honda Accord LX 1.5T[/td]
[td]Honda Accord Sport 2.0T[/td]
[td]Toyota Camry L[/td]
[td]Toyota Camry XSE[/td]
[td]Toyota Camry XLE V6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Engine
(87 octane)[/td]
[td]2.5L I4
187hp@6,000rpm[/td]
[td]2.5T I4
227hp@5,000rpm[/td]
[td]1.5T I4
192hp@5500rpm[/td]
[td]2.0T I4
252hp@6500rpm[/td]
[td]2.5L I4
203hp@6600rpm[/td]
[td]2.5L I4
206hp@6,800rpm[/td]
[td]3.5L V6
301hp@6,600rpm[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Automatic Transmission[/td]
[td]6-speed with Sport mode[/td]
[td]6-speed with Sport mode[/td]
[td]CVT with Sport mode[/td]
[td]10-speed with paddle shifters[/td]
[td]8-speed[/td]
[td]8-speed with Sport/Normal/Eco modes[/td]
[td]8-speed with Sport/Normal/Eco modes[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]EPA MPG combined/city/hwy[/td]
[td]29/26/35[/td]
[td]26/23/31[/td]
[td]33/30/38[/td]
[td]27/23/34[/td]
[td]34/29/41[/td]
[td]32/28/39[/td]
[td]26/22/33[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
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- Plano, Texas, USA
I've already said in the previous post, the impressive thing for Toyota's Dynamic Force 2.5L is thermal efficiency, horsepower is an added benefit. Top end or not, it's not a crime to have 16~19 extra horsepower to spare. And you can't compare a current production engine to a future product, the SkyActiv-X. It won't be available at least a year or two later. We don't know if Mazda would encounter any other issues like changing the original design by adding spark plugs. We don't know what is the true horsepower on a SkyActiv-X 2.0L. And nobody knows when the SkyActiv-X 2.5L will even be available!
BTW, please show me which part of Dynamic Force 2.5L resembles SkyActic-G? Bore and stroke are different、piston shape is different、intake and exhaust manifold design is different、fuel injection system is different、valve timing system is different、water pump and thermostat are different、and I can go on and on. Like I said before, only compression ratio is the same between two engines!
Chris_Top_Her
Contributor
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- San Antonio, Texas
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- '15 CX-5 Miata AWD
Interesting note that a chevy cruze piston looks very much kile a skyactive piston.
