Intake Manifold Design

[ProtegePoe]

www.jenvey.com the have alot of info on multiple throttle bodies. Look through the site you will find formulas for runner lengths and so on. Oh by the way I am pretty sure you can modify the Miata quad throttle bodies to fit our head.

 

[twilightprotege]

very interesting

 

[green MP3]

Weelll my friend it sounds interesting but i will tell you this.

Those fu...ing vics do more harm than good. they create distorted flow since they could be all the way open and still offer restriction thru the middle rod that holds the butterflyies. i went all out with them cause i am going turbo so i will have the best flow with my set up. My set up was designed for major horse power. i am planning to go 400 HP so i needed to do all that. this is why when i start selling them i am going to offer stage 1 which will have the eight runners,only bigger and polished for n/a applications and the one that i have for turbos as stage II

I can tell you that if you have 2 sets of vics(like here in the US)
i would take out at least the ones that are right at the head ports and leave it as an MP3 manifold(by the way that is the difference between the mp3 and the protege 5)
Our manifold is nice but it's too restricted. if you are not going to open the holes of the manifold them try this.
Open the intake in half. it can be done from the top without touching the head or even valve cover. it will split and two and the gasket is made of metal so it won't get ruined, then remove just the butterflyies(they have small screws that hold them to the main rod) than put it back together and try your car to see if it runs better for you. if you are not happy increase your fuel presure then try it again. also you can always remove just one side of the butterflyies, like the botton ones only and then try your car again.
try this and tell me how you liked it


Green!!!

 

[twilightprotege]

the aussie one doesnt have VCTS (near the head), so i'm lucky there....

i'm really wanting to take advantage of the VICS (back ones) as they are a really good idea, just not used to their full potential

i've got the head and intake manifold out at the moment (head being ported), that's why i've been think about the intake manifold

 

[70]

....(snip)
I can tell you that if you have 2 sets of vics(like here in the US)
i would take out at least the ones that are right at the head ports and leave it as an MP3 manifold(by the way that is the difference between the mp3 and the protege 5)
(snip)....

Green!!!

Yeah, um, it is VTCS and VICS...Not two sets of VICS.

How do you know what you are doing is going to be any good if you don't even know what you are taking out or even messing with?

The intake manifold off of the FS-ZE actually flows fairly well and is one of the best manifolds you can get for the FS motor with out going the custom route.

 

[Installshield 2]

very interesting

And very LOUD...If you live in an area prone to DB tests, the honk of those intake manifolds are enough to make the cops eyes water and $$$ appear over his head...

That site isn't loading for me though...If they are basically similar mani's with 4 supperimposed TB's by the head ports they may not be that bad compared to stock (BMW E-46 M3's have more than one TB in a similar setup, and they are still loud compared to one TB)...But if they are 4 individual "stacks" with TB's and just some thin plumbing to a filter, you can see what I mean...Also the throttle linkage and TPS needs to be completely redesigned which can be very difficult...

 

[Installshield 2]

Re: good one !!!

__________________
More importantly no significant gains can be had without a new engine controller...GreenMP3 knifed the s*** out of the stock intake manifold, then polished it along with adding intake valves the size of silver dollars...He claimed way too much air was getting into the engine, and that it was running too lean and he was loosing power...I am no expert but to me that sounds a little strange...The stock ECU runs the mixture extremely rich at open loop, in which case the fuel delivery is good for around 5-6psi of boost...The tuning isn't, but there is enough fuel for it...I don't see how his intake manifold is allowing enough air into the chambers for it to lean out at open loop, especially with MAF input allowing even more fuel in...My guess is that he either is experiencing massive turbulence that is gutting power and making the engine feel lathargic, or that simply the ignition timing and fuel delivery needs to be adjusted by a proper standalone...actually it could be a combination of both...

good one man!! but you missed something. My cars runs great on open loop,after 4500 rpms it just takes off. it is before that when the cars goes lean then a bit rich then lean and so forth.
i have been working on it , so i borrowed a fuel pressure regulator and the car got much better; then i changed the injectors to toyota ones and after 4500 rpm the car flew big time, i was very impressed. our injectors suckkkkkkkkkkk.... the fuel delivery was good on low and high. the rpm when from 4500 to 7500 in secs, it was a great feeling.
i am still tuning and finding ways to get our freaking computer to work better and well i guess it's just a matter of time.
i won't tell you which injectors i am using cause i want to test everything and get the "errors "out of the way so all of you won't go to the first junkyard and get them then bith at me
if you were to run in to trouble.....

but i can tell you this.!the electronics on our cars suck but can be modified with other automobile brands that use denso so take it from there......

Green


(greenpro)

Sorry I misread your initial post a few weeks ago...I thought you said it was running lean in Open loop...

Anyway, then yes what you are saying makes sense...Closed loop lamba is a negative feedback system (similar to a thermostat for a heat pump, or some metabolic reactions in your body), which adjusts fuel by input from the first O2 sensor...The system tries as hard as possible to keep the mixture at "ideal" stoichiometric, in turn keeping unburned hydrocarbon content down...So in closed loop the engine is very close to running lean in stock form, and then the system switches to Open Loop for higher load apps in which, for reasons beyond the scope of this post, the mixture needs to be richer...

So with your mods you most likely are running very lean at closed loop, and very good at open loop...like you said...I apologize for the above post making you seem as though you were making false claims...

 

[green MP3]

Yeah, um, it is VTCS and VICS...Not two sets of VICS.

How do you know what you are doing is going to be any good if you don't even know what you are taking out or even messing with?

The intake manifold off of the FS-ZE actually flows fairly well and is one of the best manifolds you can get for the FS motor with out going the custom route.


My god im sorry, it's true, forgive my ignorance about not knowing the names of the butterflyies in their order but i must say that i will also forgive yours for not knowing that just because one does not know all the names and pieces of a car makes you a person that does not know what is doing.
If i did not know what i am doing then you wouldn't be reading my posts.

thank you

Green

 

[green MP3]

Besides i have not yet been beat by an MP3 or P5 with mods on both cars so i must be doing something right!!! right?
Green

 

[twilightprotege]

i think i'm going to try that idea where i reverse the vics butterflys to be closed at low rpm and open at high rpm and drill the holes though the bottom of the vics chamber...i'm certain that'll work and work well...esp at high rpm

 

[70]

Besides i have not yet been beat by an MP3 or P5 with mods on both cars so i must be doing something right!!! right?
Green

Maybe...

 

[70]

My god im sorry, it's true, forgive my ignorance about not knowing the names of the butterflyies in their order but i must say that i will also forgive yours for not knowing that just because one does not know all the names and pieces of a car makes you a person that does not know what is doing.
If i did not know what i am doing then you wouldn't be reading my posts.

thank you

Green

What I am saying is that simply removing everything from the manifold isn't necessarily better than having it there.

Did you test flow before and after? With both VTCS and VICS in. Then remove one? Remove the other? Remove both?

 

[ddogg777]

i think i'm going to try that idea where i reverse the vics butterflys to be closed at low rpm and open at high rpm and drill the holes though the bottom of the vics chamber...i'm certain that'll work and work well...esp at high rpm

Ressurrecting so you can tell us how it went.

 

[twilightprotege]

damn i was hoping this idea was forgotten...it was going to be my secret weapon! hehe

oh well.

anyway, i havent done much into this yet, but the idea is still on the cards.

what i was thinking is turning it into a true dual runner design. that would involve adding metal in between the VICS runners so that it doesnt borrow air from the other areas like it does currently.

but what i will have to do is make the runners smaller than what they currently are, esp since i will be (at the moment anyway) keeping the stock rev limit of 6500rpm. if the runners are too big, i will be loosing top end power. too small and i would have spent a lot of money on something that doesnt do much.

the easiest way i thought of doing this (which would also allow me to change the runner diameters if need be is to make a sleave which would basically slide into the runner. sounds easy, but i'm certain not easy to get someone to make it up for me. it would involve first of all getting the bottom drilled out at the correct angle so that the sleave goes in fine, but most of all, seals sort of well.

anyway, lots to think of. i dont think this will be happening to my car for some time, but i still have the idea and would like to try it out.

 

[p5sundevil]

hm, so the fs-ze ended up not being worth it in the other thread about that IM?

I only ask cause there is an entire fs-ze engine on ebay for 450plus shipping, then you get everything, IM, jspec cams, and an extra head and bottom end to play with.

 

[ddogg777]

I'm confused, where is it "borrowing" air from?

It sounds like you are gonna change the manifold from a variable resonance system to a dual runner setup, is that correct?

 

[p5sundevil]

beat u =)

 

[ddogg777]

Grrr, where in Redmond are you? (dark)

 

[p5sundevil]

i guess it would be considered the NW part of redmond, the golf course i work at is actually in the redmond watershed preserve which is about 4 or 5 miles east and 2-3 miles north of redmond town center.

I live about 15 minutes from work about 5 min from the town center....but Im also like 10 min from kirkland and woodinville. redhook brewery and about 11 wineries within 15 minutes =)

 

[twilightprotege]

the borrowing comes from the other intake runners - that's how the VICS works.

but yes, i'd be changing the IM from a variable resonance system to a dual runner setup