IMO Learn to drive stick on any car, they all take a certain amount of getting used to. With that said, I think that the clutch in the MS3 might be a bit harder to learn on. It seems to be more like an on/off switch than most of the cars I've driven, including my friends 06 WRX.
How does MS3's clutch point compare to that of other vehicles?
- Thread starter Sergius64
- Start date
happy and angry
Member
I find that true about everything in this car. I'm not sure if it's fluids getting up to temperature or lines warming up a bit or what, but when it's cold the clutch and brakes are a bloody on/off switch, and I am positively anal about avoiding unnecessary clutch wear so I don't think it's me partially glazing the thing every drive.
I was actually paying attention to throttle response today, by the way. Normally I just drive, don't think much about it, but you're right about throttle lag. I've just been adjusting for it when I drive I guess, but now it's going to drive me up the wall on track or at an autocross now that I am consciously aware of it.
tiagotiago
Member
- :
- 2008.5 Mazdaspeed 3
The MS3's clutch isn't the easiest one I've encountered, and it will take you a bit of time to get used to it; in any case give yourself a few weeks and you should be doing allright. By already haven driven a stick shift (even if for a little while) you should now know the basic do's and dont's.
(ugh)(nailbyt)(stash)(eekdance)
- :
- 2010 Mazda5 GT
That's a great way of putting it. I was trying to find words earlier to describe it, but this is pretty accurate for me so far during my ownership of this car.
Saskatchewan17
Member
- :
- 2008 TR Mazdaspeed 3
Yeah the MS3 is my first car and first manual car. The clutch is pretty darn stiff and hard to work. I must have stalled it around 20 times the first day we got it. It is a horrid car to learn on, but once you do everything seems incredibly easy. I drove my friend's 2000 Civic EX and I could be really sloppy and careless with the clutch and the car wouldn't even jerk or shudder at all. If I were doing the same on the MS3 it wouldn't be so compliant.
The clutch is rather stiff and hard to get used to. After stalling the car a few times I just said, "I quit! Should have got a DSG GTI!" You feel this way after driving it the first few times. I've never stalled in the middle of traffic though. Just in neighborhoods, when I was trying to park in spaces I wouldn't know how to modulate the clutch to have the car rolling and I would just kill it half way into a parking spot. But now I'm pretty much flawless, just a little jerky when trying to get up and go really fast, or when the car is cold as ice. The only thing I have to learn is heel toeing.
Trust me the car is so worth getting over how to learn to drive stick. Get a friend with a Honda Fit or little econobox and go to a parking lot and just practice practice practice. The MS3 is such a great car, and gets sooooooooo much easier to drive after only a few days.
BTW Hills are a problem on all manuals. At the beginning just pull the E-brake and do the whole pendulum thing to get the car rolling, and once it starts pulling let off the E-brake. You will get the hang of just letting the clutch out when the light turns green and once off the brake the car will hold so you can get on the gas and go. Easy peasy after a little practice.
The clutch is rather stiff and hard to get used to. After stalling the car a few times I just said, "I quit! Should have got a DSG GTI!" You feel this way after driving it the first few times. I've never stalled in the middle of traffic though. Just in neighborhoods, when I was trying to park in spaces I wouldn't know how to modulate the clutch to have the car rolling and I would just kill it half way into a parking spot. But now I'm pretty much flawless, just a little jerky when trying to get up and go really fast, or when the car is cold as ice. The only thing I have to learn is heel toeing.
Trust me the car is so worth getting over how to learn to drive stick. Get a friend with a Honda Fit or little econobox and go to a parking lot and just practice practice practice. The MS3 is such a great car, and gets sooooooooo much easier to drive after only a few days.
BTW Hills are a problem on all manuals. At the beginning just pull the E-brake and do the whole pendulum thing to get the car rolling, and once it starts pulling let off the E-brake. You will get the hang of just letting the clutch out when the light turns green and once off the brake the car will hold so you can get on the gas and go. Easy peasy after a little practice.
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I also own an S2000 so based on that, clutch in MS3 doesn't seem as linear and as someone said, engagement point is narrow. Throws are quite long and seem imprecise sometimes. Took me awhile to get used it and sometimes find myself focusing more than normal when taking off from light. This is one negative I can think of for this car and actually had buyers remorse the first week since I was so used to S2000 tranny.
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The clutch does take some getting used to. It's not as forgiving as my 03 BMW was, but it is fairly similar to my '02 WRX. I've found from my experience that 1500-1800 rpm is a good launch point on flat surfaces while 2k- ish works on inclines depending on the severity of the grade.
Empty parking lots are great places to practice for clutch/fine control much like motorcycle drills. (bike)
Empty parking lots are great places to practice for clutch/fine control much like motorcycle drills. (bike)
BillTheCat
Member
- :
- 2009 Mazdaspeed3 Sport
Things about this clutch have been summed up well so far. The on/off switch metaphor is the perfect way to convey how small the friction point is on the clutch. That makes it harder to launch in a civil manner, but makes the clutch much better able to handle hard launches. Takes some practice & focus to launch the car in a "normal" way, but we all learn to do it.
To the OP: Have you driven the GTI w/ DSG? I mean, really gotten into it? I told the VW salesman that I'd feel a lot better about buying the car if I could drive it like a bat out of hell for a few minutes to get a feel for the transmission and suspension. (They had no manual transmission models on the lot) And I was a little underwhelmed by it.
In manual mode, the "flappy paddle gearbox," as Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear likes to call it, is just awkward. I suppose I could get used to it, but there's a slight delay between pressing the paddle & the actual gearshift, and you're forced to keep your hands in the exact same spot on the wheel at all times. And while you shouldn't be shifting gears during a turn, it could be distracting to find that you need to, and then have to find the blasted flappy paddle while not wandering out of your lane or off the road.
In auto mode, I found it sluggish. I mean, it just felt like stepping on a warm turd. My old 2001 VW Golf 1.8T had more balls than the '09 GTI DSG(but it was manual shift, too).
In sport mode, it felt like stepping on a warm turd that just wouldn't shift until darned near redline under any circumstances. I would have expected it to adjust the shift point based on throttle position. 20% throttle should not produce redline shifts, but it darned sure seemed to.
I love the engineering behind the DSG. It's a wonderfully elegant piece of machinery. But, at least in VW's case, the execution seems to need some improving. The other consideration with a DSG is that it is, literally, 2 transmissions in one. 1 transmission handles the odd gears, and one handles the evens. So if it ever breaks down, it could be hella pricey to fix, and I'm not sure my local AAMCO would be able to handle it. I say let someone else beta test the DSG for a few years, let them fine tune it, and let the mechanics learn how to work on it.
If, however, you like the GTI and can't get over the MS3 clutch grabbiness, I would try testing the GTI 6-speed. Most of VW's clutches are fairly forgiving.
To the OP: Have you driven the GTI w/ DSG? I mean, really gotten into it? I told the VW salesman that I'd feel a lot better about buying the car if I could drive it like a bat out of hell for a few minutes to get a feel for the transmission and suspension. (They had no manual transmission models on the lot) And I was a little underwhelmed by it.
In manual mode, the "flappy paddle gearbox," as Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear likes to call it, is just awkward. I suppose I could get used to it, but there's a slight delay between pressing the paddle & the actual gearshift, and you're forced to keep your hands in the exact same spot on the wheel at all times. And while you shouldn't be shifting gears during a turn, it could be distracting to find that you need to, and then have to find the blasted flappy paddle while not wandering out of your lane or off the road.
In auto mode, I found it sluggish. I mean, it just felt like stepping on a warm turd. My old 2001 VW Golf 1.8T had more balls than the '09 GTI DSG(but it was manual shift, too).
In sport mode, it felt like stepping on a warm turd that just wouldn't shift until darned near redline under any circumstances. I would have expected it to adjust the shift point based on throttle position. 20% throttle should not produce redline shifts, but it darned sure seemed to.
I love the engineering behind the DSG. It's a wonderfully elegant piece of machinery. But, at least in VW's case, the execution seems to need some improving. The other consideration with a DSG is that it is, literally, 2 transmissions in one. 1 transmission handles the odd gears, and one handles the evens. So if it ever breaks down, it could be hella pricey to fix, and I'm not sure my local AAMCO would be able to handle it. I say let someone else beta test the DSG for a few years, let them fine tune it, and let the mechanics learn how to work on it.
If, however, you like the GTI and can't get over the MS3 clutch grabbiness, I would try testing the GTI 6-speed. Most of VW's clutches are fairly forgiving.
BillTheCat
Member
- :
- 2009 Mazdaspeed3 Sport
LONG POST ALERT
Oh, and while I am at it... a technique that my Dad used to teach me to drive stick, which I have in turn used to teach several others. Mind you, this is hell on a clutch, but hard launches over the course of a few years of spirited driving will cause far more wear than an hour or two doing this...
Get the MS3 into a big empty parking lot with no bumpstops. Level pavement, no obstacles, no other cars. Practice a no-throttle launch. First, just work on releasing the clutch ONLY to the point where you start to hear the engine react & the car just barely lurches forward, by a fraction of an inch, then press it back in. Repeat several times to learn the engagement point. You'll begin to notice you can feel the engine faintly thru the pedal as the clutch engages.
Next, start launching the car with no throttle. You just ease the clutch out, as slowly as you possibly can. When you hit the friction point, make the movement painfully slow. Let the engine slowly accelerate the car until the clutch is fully disengaged. You'll creep along at 2-3mph. Press the clutch in again, step on the brake, and repeat. You may very well stall the car out a few times before you manage to release the clutch slowly enough to let the engine idle get the car moving on its own.
Do this over & over until you develop a strong feel for where the clutch engages, and how "wide" the friction point is- that is, the amount of pedal travel between where it first starts to grab, and where the car is no longer accelerating forward, but just cruising.
Once you get that, continue launching with no throttle for a few more attempts, but now, after the car is rolling, gently press the throttle to get it up to 10-15mph, and practice shifting into 2nd gear. For someone new to manual transmissions, the 1st gear launch & a rolling shift between gears are 2 completely different experiences. Don't even get into 3rd gear right now. Want to keep speeds slow so there's no worry about running into anything in the parking lot. Just work on the shift from 1st to 2nd, and applying that touch of throttle pressure that makes it smooth.
Once you get the idea behind that touch of throttle that makes 1st to 2nd smooth, start launching in 1st with a touch of throttle as well. You'll start to find that "sweet spot" and learn to press the throttle early enough to avoid stalling, but late enough that you're not revving the engine to redline while the clutch is still enganged.
Once you master the no-throttle launch, 1st-to-2nd, and then the normal throttled launch, it's smooth sailing. You'll be thinking consciously about throttle & clutch movements, and gear shift selections for a few miles, but after you drive for a few weeks, it starts to become semi-automatic in your brain. After a few months, you'll hardly think about it at all. From that point, as you move from car to car, it's just a matter of adjusting your driving habits to each clutch- how far off the floor does it engange, how wide is the friction point, etc.
Some of the people I taught with this method have been those who were scared out of their wits of a manual transmission, and not one of them failed to master it. Some of them have been impatient & wanted to get out of the parking lot after 5 minutes, but they were the confident ones who were ready for the challenge of learning on public roads. Either way, whether you spend 15 minutes or an hour or two, it's a good intro to recognizing clutch feel & getting clutch & throttle coordinated.
And don't ever be afraid to use the e-brake to assist on an uphill launch. Just press the clutch in & hold it, put the car in 1st gear & leave it there, and keep your foot on the brake. Pull the e-brake handle & keep your hand on it. When the light turns green, remember how you felt for the friction point on the no-throttle launch. But use the throttle, with a little more gas (for going uphill) than normal, and the second you start to feel the clutch engange, drop the e-brake, give a little more throttle to get you going, & move your right hand back to the gear shift. Once you are moving, shifting into 2nd gear is no different than any other normal driving conditions.
Oh, and while I am at it... a technique that my Dad used to teach me to drive stick, which I have in turn used to teach several others. Mind you, this is hell on a clutch, but hard launches over the course of a few years of spirited driving will cause far more wear than an hour or two doing this...
Get the MS3 into a big empty parking lot with no bumpstops. Level pavement, no obstacles, no other cars. Practice a no-throttle launch. First, just work on releasing the clutch ONLY to the point where you start to hear the engine react & the car just barely lurches forward, by a fraction of an inch, then press it back in. Repeat several times to learn the engagement point. You'll begin to notice you can feel the engine faintly thru the pedal as the clutch engages.
Next, start launching the car with no throttle. You just ease the clutch out, as slowly as you possibly can. When you hit the friction point, make the movement painfully slow. Let the engine slowly accelerate the car until the clutch is fully disengaged. You'll creep along at 2-3mph. Press the clutch in again, step on the brake, and repeat. You may very well stall the car out a few times before you manage to release the clutch slowly enough to let the engine idle get the car moving on its own.
Do this over & over until you develop a strong feel for where the clutch engages, and how "wide" the friction point is- that is, the amount of pedal travel between where it first starts to grab, and where the car is no longer accelerating forward, but just cruising.
Once you get that, continue launching with no throttle for a few more attempts, but now, after the car is rolling, gently press the throttle to get it up to 10-15mph, and practice shifting into 2nd gear. For someone new to manual transmissions, the 1st gear launch & a rolling shift between gears are 2 completely different experiences. Don't even get into 3rd gear right now. Want to keep speeds slow so there's no worry about running into anything in the parking lot. Just work on the shift from 1st to 2nd, and applying that touch of throttle pressure that makes it smooth.
Once you get the idea behind that touch of throttle that makes 1st to 2nd smooth, start launching in 1st with a touch of throttle as well. You'll start to find that "sweet spot" and learn to press the throttle early enough to avoid stalling, but late enough that you're not revving the engine to redline while the clutch is still enganged.
Once you master the no-throttle launch, 1st-to-2nd, and then the normal throttled launch, it's smooth sailing. You'll be thinking consciously about throttle & clutch movements, and gear shift selections for a few miles, but after you drive for a few weeks, it starts to become semi-automatic in your brain. After a few months, you'll hardly think about it at all. From that point, as you move from car to car, it's just a matter of adjusting your driving habits to each clutch- how far off the floor does it engange, how wide is the friction point, etc.
Some of the people I taught with this method have been those who were scared out of their wits of a manual transmission, and not one of them failed to master it. Some of them have been impatient & wanted to get out of the parking lot after 5 minutes, but they were the confident ones who were ready for the challenge of learning on public roads. Either way, whether you spend 15 minutes or an hour or two, it's a good intro to recognizing clutch feel & getting clutch & throttle coordinated.
And don't ever be afraid to use the e-brake to assist on an uphill launch. Just press the clutch in & hold it, put the car in 1st gear & leave it there, and keep your foot on the brake. Pull the e-brake handle & keep your hand on it. When the light turns green, remember how you felt for the friction point on the no-throttle launch. But use the throttle, with a little more gas (for going uphill) than normal, and the second you start to feel the clutch engange, drop the e-brake, give a little more throttle to get you going, & move your right hand back to the gear shift. Once you are moving, shifting into 2nd gear is no different than any other normal driving conditions.
best advice so far!
OP if you haven't driven a stick in the past you won't know the difference but here are some more tips for ya...did this for my cousin and she was off and driving in like 10 min.
take some time before even trying to drive the car getting used to where the clutch engauges w/o using the gas pedal. these cars have enough tq to get themselves moving w/o the aid of the gas pedal. you soon and quickly see where the clutch engauges...this is important and will help you not roll back into people and burn out at ever light. once you get the hang of this try using a little bit of gas slowly to move the car faster ( go slow !! ) do this several times until your comfortable.
honestly my cousin had my car down pat and was driving around our neighbor hood in just a few minutes.
Edit: sorry i didn't see that Billthecat pretty much summed up what i was stating as well.
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Whenever I'm teaching someone to drive stick, its always on a beater. Then I usually tell them "This is what I want you to do. Mash the gas pedal until it sounds like the engine is screaming and then drop the clutch."
"really?"
"Yes."
wrrRRRRRR Chirp-chirp-chirp VVvvvvvrrrrooom!
Then they're eyes light up like they get it.
Then I slow it down from there.
"really?"
"Yes."
wrrRRRRRR Chirp-chirp-chirp VVvvvvvrrrrooom!
Then they're eyes light up like they get it.
Then I slow it down from there.
- :
- 06 LS MS6
07 BM GT (shell has been struck from the roll)
My first car was 11 years old when I got it. 223ci straight six in a 64 ford custom. huge gap between 1rst and 2nd. launching was easy though
my corolla was butter at least stock, and I could adjust the pedal point with the linkage. I have it VERY high and the brake VERY low.. I can cover the brake with the ball on my big toe and catch the throttle with my little toe. and when talking on the cell , drinking coffee shifting and streering with my left knee I can dip the clutch just flexing my ankle. tougher to shift by far with the alumflyand pully and stage trhee crap clutch
the MS3 is tough for a stock carlaunch is easy but 1-2 takes thought, which brings me to the drive by wire. I think lukep may be on to something the DBW lag may be why the 1-2 is unsmooth at times
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- 06 LS MS6
07 BM GT (shell has been struck from the roll)
Nice job, and I did esstially the same with my kid (never passed the LP test, but I tried)
since you are old (experienced) like me, what is your comparative impression on this cars feel?
happy and angry
Member
First I tell him to do slow no-throttle starts into gear, then BillTheCat does it, then you do it, and then you apologize to Bill for rhyme biting.
I am sad.
Only way I can keep it smooth is by not lifting on the throttle. I ease a bit, we're talking tiny increments though, but not lifting completely like I would in a cable driven car.
No lifting, no lag. The revs don't jump like they do in a cable-throttle car, but they don't drop either. If you shift fast enough it feels firm but right. If I lift off completely, then tipping in doesnt register quick enough and it feels 'wrong'.
i have to use my handbrake all the time to get going on a hill. Retards get so close if i dont id roll back and hit them before i could engage the clutch to move
Nliiitend1
Member
I think you guys are crazy. (screwy)
My car exhibits no more throttle tip-in lag than just about any car I've ever driven with a cable operated throttle plate... (dunno)
