HiBoost car at 1/4 mile

[b_real45]

STOP THE PRESS. Thank you. Thank you for proving me right. HiBoost claimed (and i've "spelled it out" many times for you) that it delivers proper fuel to the car at REDLINE with STOCK pressure with a 70% duty cycle. Not .85, .70.

Never did I argue about the 70% duty cycle. In all my arguements I have said that it is possible for the stock injectors to handle that HP. That is it.

Doesn't prove it to me...You have to exaggerate half the equation in your favor to even get it close. Any turbo expert knows that the numbers you plugged in are wishful thinking, to say the least.

I assume you're the turbo expert? Remember this is a Naturally Aspirated car.... WE DONT KNOW THE TRUE BSFC. Like I said... go dyno your car... map out / log the whole run... make sure to log your FP, and your injector Duty cycle throughout the WHOLE run. Come back and make your claim that stock injectors will not support that hp.

 

[b_real45]

Huh? I didn't mention an FMU...

Sorry, I was still thinking of another topic on fuel management. Regardless, we do not know how exactly the F10 affects the BSFC of the P5.

 

[Kooldino]

I drive my friend's EVO8 every other day.... That water mister you're talking about just sprays the outside of the intercooler... doesn't work the way AiR:Water IC's work.. The mist of water evaporates over the IC to cool it...same technique firefighters use to cool down a fire while another team sprays the base. Air:Water ICs have water inside being pumped constantly to keep it from getting heat soaked. Tons of Street driven non hardcore Hondas have this setup... it's to save space. It is a little more effecient, but by no means "hardcore".

I understand the difference between a mister and an air:water, but the end principle is that they're both spraying a fluid to cool down intake temps and improve effieciency. That's still "hardcore" to me. I've never seen a slow car with a mister or an air:fluid setup. Maybe you have. It just wouldn't make sense for a slow car to use it. But slow or not, it's an extreme way to manage intake temps...still pretty hardcore in my book, any way you slice it.

Some people like to max out their turbo before buying a new one. Doesn't it seem more logical to see where you're at before going on the the next best thing?

It seems more logical to do things right.

So it was designed by Corky Bell yet he uses internal wastegates. Remember he's also trying to sell an easy to install, affordable kit. What is the cheapest way to go?? INTERNAL. What is the easiest to install? INTERNAL.

Bingo.

Is that what you do when you can't win arguments?

I'd say I have this argument pretty well won. I proved you wrong mathematically. There's nothing you can do. You're wrong. The "n00b" comment was just to screw with you since you seem to be getting so worked up and trying to degrade me. I've really tried hard refraining in stooping to that level.
Jesus loves you, man.

 

[Little Beavis]

I love you too man! Be nice!

So, ummm, like what is this thread about? I forgot!

 

[b_real45]

I don't understand how you've proved me wrong mathematically. You're saying I'm wrong because some of my theoretical numbers are too *farfetched* for you? Sorry Mr. Expert.. I had no idea you know exactly what numbers are acceptable or not.

You OBVIOUSLY do not know the difference between a mister and an Air:Water IC because you used that example. No, it's not the same point... the mister SPRAYS water.. small amounts to just create vapor. The Air:water is a tank of water pumped constantly while air is moving over the intercooler to keep the water at a reasonable temperature. The forced air passes through the inside of the IC.. no where in the Air:Water system is anything being sprayed on. But I guess just the smallest things make you think they're so hardcore. I consider hardcore as alcohol misting into the combustion chamber... or Methanol used instead of gas. Or having a custom build Fuel tank that uses only racegas, while keeping the stock one for pump gas.

I don't believe in Jesus... according to the Bible his father created beings like you. That is just something I cannot comprehend.

 

[perfworks]

i have a s*** load to say about this thread but because i have to leave now ill save it for tonight.
but there are alot of misconceptions going on.
one in particular that is itching at me is the insane idea than a turbocharged vehicle can run at .40 bsfc
come on real YOU need to be a little "real". sorry just defending kooldino here because i think that some are a little misinformed.
but i will post a little later when i have time to b****.

 

[Kooldino]

Never did I argue about the 70% duty cycle. In all my arguements I have said that it is possible for the stock injectors to handle that HP. That is it.

See that, we weren't even arguing the same thing the whole time. Although if you did put a realistic BSFC in there, you'd see how it wouldn't handle 250hp either. We've already proven that.

I assume you're the turbo expert?

Never claimed I was. But again, notice that no highly-respected member of this forum is arguing with my point here. I'm not saying that you aren't respected, but the members that people look to and trust for things like this (myself included) are NOT arguing with me. Food for thought.

Remember this is a Naturally Aspirated car.... WE DONT KNOW THE TRUE BSFC.

But it's NOT N/A due to the TURBO, which changes your BSFC. And you're right, we DO NOT know our exact BSFC, but what we DO know is that turbo'd cars run more fuel for the same amount of air (when compared to an N/A engine), and therefore it's going to show a higher BSFC, ie, a less efficient one, ie much higher than .40. Hell, even .50 would be an understatement.

Like I said... go dyno your car... map out / log the whole run... make sure to log your FP, and your injector Duty cycle throughout the WHOLE run. Come back and make your claim that stock injectors will not support that hp.

I don't have to go throught the trouble. Again, I've already proven you wrong with calculation. And hell, you've proven me right by yours.

 

[b_real45]

Perf,

Haha, I know where you're coming from. But all I'm showing is that theoretically it is possible. Not saying it is possible at 70% duty cycle.. but saying that 280cc injectors will handle 214whp. That's basically it.

Also, like I mentioned up there, someone really needs to dyno the car, turbo'd, and log the whole process... log the duty cycle and log the fuel pressures throughout the whole run. This way we can finally figure out the BSFC for a P5 so there will be no more misconceptions.

Another reason for all these *theoretical* numbers is because HiBoost hasn't given us DETAILS. I wished they'd come and tell us what idle FP they're running and what not.

 

[b_real45]

I don't have to go throught the trouble. Again, I've already proven you wrong with calculation. And hell, you've proven me right by yours.

Yes you do if you really want to help the Protege community out.

Yes of course the car is Turbo'd after a kit is installed.. but does the ECU know that? In the case of the F10, we dont' know how it affects the BSFC... for all we know, the stock ECU can still think it is a naturally aspirated car.

 

[Kooldino]

I don't understand how you've proved me wrong mathematically. You're saying I'm wrong because some of my theoretical numbers are too *farfetched* for you?

Well, THAT and the fact that I was arguing my point against HiBoost since they were claiming a 70% duty cycle w/ those variables. But yes, a .4 BSFC is way too farfetched for a turbo'd car. You'd run LEAN. Period.

Sorry Mr. Expert.. I had no idea you know exactly what numbers are acceptable or not.

Oh boy. Here we go. Come on man, even someone with a general understanding of BSFC should know why those numbers are a joke.

You OBVIOUSLY do not know the difference between a mister and an Air:Water IC because you used that example.

No, or else I would have called at an air:fluid system, not a mister system. I was trying to illustrate the point of cooling via liquid is both efficient and "hardcore".

No, it's not the same point... the mister SPRAYS water.. small amounts to just create vapor. The Air:water is a tank of water pumped constantly while air is moving over the intercooler to keep the water at a reasonable temperature. The forced air passes through the inside of the IC.. no where in the Air:Water system is anything being sprayed on. But I guess just the smallest things make you think they're so hardcore. I consider hardcore as alcohol misting into the combustion chamber... or Methanol used instead of gas. Or having a custom build Fuel tank that uses only racegas, while keeping the stock one for pump gas.

Thank you for your lovely definition of what's "hardcore" and what's not. And yes, it is the same point. Sure, one sprays a MIST (that's why it's called a "mister system") and one doesn't. But in the end, you still have WATER COOLING YOUR INTAKE CHARGE. Hardcore (of course that's just my OPINION). End of statement.

I don't believe in Jesus... according to the Bible his father created beings like you. That is just something I cannot comprehend.

That's okay, he still loves you anyway.

And so do i.






Father my children!!!!

 

[Kooldino]

i have a s*** load to say about this thread but because i have to leave now ill save it for tonight.
but there are alot of misconceptions going on.
one in particular that is itching at me is the insane idea than a turbocharged vehicle can run at .40 bsfc
come on real YOU need to be a little "real". sorry just defending kooldino here because i think that some are a little misinformed.
but i will post a little later when i have time to b****.

Oh yeah. It's gonna be a FUN night on the boards tonight!

 

[b_real45]

Just something else to think about....

Go back to the RC engineering site.. to technical info

Go down to the last program where you can find out your BSFC


Now do this.. (all this info is from my friend's GS-R turbo)

317 crank hp (270whp with 15% loss)
4 injectors
26.7lb/hr injectors (270cc)
117 fuel pressure (45 + 72.... 72 = 12 (fmu) x 6 (psi))
0.8% duty cycle

What does the BSFC say?

 

[Kooldino]

Perf,

Haha, I know where you're coming from. But all I'm showing is that theoretically it is possible. Not saying it is possible at 70% duty cycle.. but saying that 280cc injectors will handle 214whp. That's basically it.

Way to evolve your argument after I keep proving my points.
I'd agree with 280cc doing 214whp given enough fuel pressure, etc on a certain engine. But under "stock" fuel pressure, 70% duty cylce, and boosted? Nope. Proved that wrong. Hell, even with an 85% duty cycle, "stock" fuel pressure and boosted you won't make 214whp safely. But you'd at least be in the right ballpark. Now we're getting somewhere.

Also, like I mentioned up there, someone really needs to dyno the car, turbo'd, and log the whole process... log the duty cycle and log the fuel pressures throughout the whole run. This way we can finally figure out the BSFC for a P5 so there will be no more misconceptions.

Fine with me, cut me a check and I'll have the dyno shop do it all.

Another reason for all these *theoretical* numbers is because HiBoost hasn't given us DETAILS. I wished they'd come and tell us what idle FP they're running and what not.

Well, they're not controlling FP AFAIK, so it should be right around 38-40.

 

[Kooldino]

Yes you do if you really want to help the Protege community out.

Yes of course the car is Turbo'd after a kit is installed.. but does the ECU know that? In the case of the F10, we dont' know how it affects the BSFC... for all we know, the stock ECU can still think it is a naturally aspirated car.

But it HAS to change the BSFC since it needs a "richer" A/F ratio.

 

[b_real45]

Just something else to think about....

Go back to the RC engineering site.. to technical info

Go down to the last program where you can find out your BSFC


Now do this.. (all this info is from my friend's GS-R turbo)

317 crank hp (270whp with 15% loss)
4 injectors
26.7lb/hr injectors (270cc)
117 fuel pressure (45 + 72.... 72 = 12 (fmu) x 6 (psi))
0.8% duty cycle

What does the BSFC say?

 

[Kooldino]

LOL. Way to quote yourself and not add to it.

Anyway, I got a .44 plugging in the numbers you gave. I'll admit, the numbers you gave are reasonable but like you said, it all varies by the car. And turbo'd cars tend to have a higher BSFC, possibly due to their "richer" A/F ratio, although that IS debatable since you will make more POWER out of the denser air, etc, but I can debate that point alone in my head for a few hours.

Another thing about your friend's car...he's running a very high fuel pressure...I'd fathom that the fuel pressure would help him make a tad more power since he'd get better atomization, etc, but that's peanuts.

Whatever the case, like you said, all cars vary. And for whatever reason (POSSIBLY air:fuel ratio, but even that's debatable, but it's all i can think of) turboed cars tend to have a higher (worse) BSFC.

But just for grins, go plug in #'s that we know for our cars...
Take the data that Spool ITS gives us with a turbo'd mp3 @ 6.5psi...

chp=230 (198 or so at the wheels)
4 injectors
26.7 lb/hr injectors
105psi fuel system (10:1 FMU x 6.5psi=65psi+40 stock psi)
Max duty cycle = 80%

We come up with a 0.58 BSFC for an MP3. That's pretty damn close to .60, and damn far from .40.

 

[mikesmazda155]

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Good run High boost, one of the first people selling a kit running there car at the track. Thats a good time I ran a 9.32, in the 1/8 at like 69 mph I think with my T-28. I also had about the same reaction time.
*edit* Also I was only able to run 6 psi, due to the malfunction of my manual boost controller, it was only runinng off of the internal wastegate.
GOOD JOB(2thumbs)

 

[b_real45]

Anyway, I got a .44 plugging in the numbers you gave. I'll admit, the numbers you gave are reasonable but like you said, it all varies by the car. And turbo'd cars tend to have a higher BSFC, possibly due to their "richer" A/F ratio, although that IS debatable since you will make more POWER out of the denser air, etc, but I can debate that point alone in my head for a few hours.

WRONG. Taken from Westech page:
Many people believe BSFC indicates a rich/lean condition, but that is incorrect. The brake specific rule of thumb says that a typical engine will burn one half pound of fuel per horsepower per hour, or .5 BSFC. This is based on the efficiency of a relatively good combustion chamber and reasonably well matched intake and exhaust components capable of maintaining good dynamic energy across the engine. Most rough fuel requirement calculations are based on a .5 brake number, but this is only an estimated number indicating relatively good efficiency.

LOL. Way to quote yourself and not add to it.

I did this because you didn't reply.. It was intentional.. you are pretty slow to pick that up.

But just for grins, go plug in #'s that we know for our cars...
Take the data that Spool ITS gives us with a turbo'd mp3 @ 6.5psi...

chp=230 (198 or so at the wheels)
4 injectors
26.7 lb/hr injectors
105psi fuel system (10:1 FMU x 6.5psi=65psi+40 stock psi)
Max duty cycle = 80%

We come up with a 0.58 BSFC for an MP3. That's pretty damn close to .60, and damn far from .40.

1.) I've read from other posts (even one written by Perfworks) that the base fp is around 43ish.

2.) Terry supplies his kits with 12:1 FMU now... now why would you think that is?

3.) what you did doesn't really mean a thing because you can use a larger turbo which will make more hp at that given psi and still be safe with a 12:1 fmu which will yield a lower BSFC.

 

[xelderx]

lets take this outside...shall we?

http://www.protege5.com/vbb225/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20892

 

[LinuxRacr]

lets take this outside...shall we?

http://www.protege5.com/vbb225/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20892

Thank you! Time to "Unjack" this thread! The only reason I haven't shut it down is due to the somewhat civile manner in which the disscussion is going on. Yeah, this needs a new thread for the fuel disscussion.