good price for an intercooler??

i made my own FMIC, CAI, and got a $300 BOV for about $900 total spent. That includes welding gas ($90 argon/co2), lunch trips, clamps, silicone, core, bolts, piping, etc...

$1400... they are ripping you for sure.

parts, MAYBE RETAIL about $500-600. Labor will be the expensive thing. Between me and 2 buddies, took about 18-20 hours. Started from completely scratch.

$1400 for FMIC, no way. I would wait for Cobb's if i were you.

Did Mazda immediately void your warranty with a front mount or are the cool about it in that they won't warranty the stuff affected by the mods but everything else is still okay? You may not care about warranty and I'm not too concerned either but it is just nice to know what their reactions will be.

BTW, $1400 for someone to do a very NICE job with high quality parts is believeable....for retail. However, I'm sure it is only about $400 in parts. A company has to make money. I'm sure a decent setup can be done for about $600-$800 retail.
 
I think you hit most of the nail on the head. The short run of the intercooler system from the turbo behind the engine right to the throttlebody is almost worth the potential short-term heat soak from sitting on the engine.
Adding longer piping to do a front mount will take more time to fill the extra volume. The choice of cooler will also affect flow as you pointed out. The main point is "does this turbo outflow this intercooler?" I don't think so. It probably does not and therefore I can only see changing the intercooler once a change in the turbo is made. However I think that a front mount system can be built that will not degrade performance on this turbo.

Here's my 2 cents.

The factory TMIC is a very effective unit, given the elaborate duct design under the hood to promote good airflow. Down fall is it suffers from Heat soak. You can feel this heat soak for sure and the car feels like a bit of a dog initially starting, BUT by 30 mph or so the power is back and the MS3 is off to the races. So what did you really lose? Being that the MS3 is FWD and already suffers from having to much trq down low in the rpm band............. my question still remains WHAT DID YOU LOSE?
A PROPERLY designed FMIC would be MORE effective at keeping this heat soak from happening AS MUCH, but Most FMIC will limit flow of air due to poor choice of IC core.

these cars are not the typical turbo cars that run 8-10 psi, we hit 17 or so and maintain 15 + psi. With this said the Engine needs a IC that has very good flow characteristics and minimal pressure drop. the ETS IC makes a bit more power due to the fact it flows better and this helps the turbo not work so damn hard.

Though Cashmere's FMIC is very nice and i applaud him for doing it on his own work, i would be curious to see if his setup is able to maintain the same power level as the TMIC. WHY.......... due to the pressure drop. I know i have mentioned this before to Cahsmere and to others. IN hot summer conditions he would feel the difference of the FMIC i agree, but in total hp, the IC could be a bottle neck. Best way to test, would be to have a boost guage on the intake and one on the turbo and measure the difference in boost. Or even better do a dyno in cooler weather to get over the fact that on a dyno , no fan can simulate the airflow, the ducting is providing the TMIC.

IN my own testing and experience I tried 3 different IC's on my SVO. the Stock TMIC (very poor cooling effeciency due to improper placement) and 2 FMIC's that had same core measurements but were setup differently in core design. One core was designed to be very effecient at cooling the air charge/Poor airflow, the other core was designed to promote good air flow/Poor cooling (i use poor to say less than the other IC) characteristics. In the end the one with LESS PRESURE DROP MADE MORE POWER WITH LESS BOOST.

BTW my SVO made 322whp and 346wtrq with 26psi and 31*total timing (thats alot of timing) Also peak trq was at 4200rpm full boost at 3800rpm
Changed the IC to a core with the SAME overal dimension, but better FLOW, new numbers are 324whp and 379wtrq. Also the peak trq now starts at 3700ish rpm and full boost at 3400.
So the power comes on sooner holds on a bit alonger and i make more TRQ with less strain on the turbo. Also i can reduce the timing to help shy away a chance of detonation The change of the IC was VERY measurable on the BUTT dyno and later verified on the same dyno used for the previous test.

So what i recommend to any owner that is going to go with ANY AFTERMARKET IC , whether it be a TMIC or FMIC, GO WITH A CORE THAT FLOWS THE MOST. Pressure drop for our cars is HIGHLY underestimated and need to be in the equation for finding a IC that can help you make more power. the cooling properties are important BUT SO IS FLOW.

If you want more info Please search for my old posts.
 
CaSHMeRe

Your reply to my post was your regular "Non Useful Opinionated" Dribble..

I particularly love how just by reading your answers, a person can tell how little you know and how you are struggling to sound like you understand.

Plate and Bar, no matter how it's built will block airflow.
You have reduced the cooling systems integrity.
The Pitiful amount of heat generated by the TMIC to the Engine is 0.01% of the heat that the engine removes with coolant.
The "Heat Soak" that you are worried about in traffic or Stopped is gone in 1 Second after driving.

It's not a personal attack, I just can't stand when people reply and mislead the members of this forum in general.

not taken as a personal attack except this part. "I particularly love how just by reading your answers, a person can tell how little you know and how you are struggling to sound like you understand."

Struggling to sound like i understand? o geez...

Lets take Intercoolers 101 Shall we ...

(Taken From MTRally.com)
TUBE AND FIN
Benefits:

* low cost
* low weight

Disadvantages:

* "effective" lower efficiency compared to bar and plate
* can be poor quality dependant on supplier
* is a little more awkward to modify core size
* some brands are plastic sealed at ends and have limits on welding techniques

BAR AND PLATE
Benefits:

* 35% greater heat sink capability (meaning you effectively COULD have a SMALLER intercooler when compared to the tube and fin)
* Generally known as the "better product"
* easy to modify size and re weld

Disadvantages:

* weight
* cost
* some limitation in sizes
________________________________

Now, Brian, who is misleading who? Even if flow is slightly reduced in a bar and plate design (as i agree, it does slightly) ... the cooling efficiency is far superior to that of a tube & fin design. The cooler the air entering the engine, the more HP gained from the denser air.

And i will say it for probably the 11th time. Somebody deciding to stay stock for the most part (stock turbo/under 350whp) has no need for a FMIC. Those with bigger plans in the future, might want to think about upgrading sometime down the road.
 
(uhm)

Please don't think i was attacking your FMIC, its very nice work, hell if you were closer i would have you do the pipes on the SVO.

As for the ETS TMIC i can see how it can make more power since it flows better.

Best recommendation for anyone serious about turbo engines is corky bells MAXIMUM BOOST book. I didn't get smart over night, i educated myself and then tested my own thoughts. (2thumbs)

+1 ... read it back when i did my turbo prelude project ...

now on to a book entitled, "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems." pretty good book in my opinion.
 
No need for a 101 class, if a person is serious about learning how to make more power they will take the time to read books, and collect info. Like anything else on the web 10% is truth, but if you see it over and over again from different people then its probably 90% true.

i'm not here to say i know it all, cause its SOOOO far from the truth, but i wil preach things i have had experience with FIRST HAND.
Biggest thing i find on THIS forum, is they are alot of false TRUTHS. Biggest thing we as a community can do is spread the CORRECT info.

With that said, I am GOD and know all, Deal with it :D







J/k
:D
 
Well, I'm leaning toward ETS now... However I'm worried about the 3.5" TMIC being a little too close for specifications, anybody have this installed and can verify first hand that there aren't any 'rubs' with the 3.5" over the 3.25"? I'm looking to drop $2200 for CPE CAI, turbo-back, ETS TMIC, and a nice mechanical boost gauge, and am going to be installing it all at once some Saturday this fall. :) I'm doing very well with resisting the credit card and building the short-term savings account for now...

So, 3.25" vs 3.5" TMIC; and... Go!

Wonder what whp I'll be throwing all at once?
 
i think they only sell one size ETS IC the 3.25, or maybe its the other, either way, i don;t believe rubbing will be an issue.

As for whp with the givin mods, i say somewhere in the 280-290 range. Might want to consider a tuner of some sort in the budget.

man your going to have fun, considering i can't stick 325whp on good tires with RWD............. fwd is sooooo m uch worse lol

have fun
 
I think Ken said they only sell 1 size ETS tmic since the 3.5" wasn't showing any gain over the 3.25".
 
I just wanted to jump in and say a few things and then I'll leave you guys alone :D

Understand that an intercooler is an intercooler is an intercooler. The only difference between a TMIC and a FMIC is where you put it. The placement is important because the surrounding environment will determine how much heat can be rejected or absorbed. That's all we really care about.

The amount of heat that can be expelled is going to be a function of the airflow going across the core. If you can increase the available airflow, then the intercooler will be more efficient. Top mounted intercoolers are obviously restricted by how much air they can flow past them, so they're cooling ability is clearly limited. You can only flow so much air through a n air duct. Now, this doesn't mean that you can't make a TMIC work for a particular application, but you are limited by how much air you can get across the core. A FMIC on the other hand has a nearly limitless airflow potential, since there are no ducts or passages feeding the core. So really, the faster you drive the more efficient the core gets (to a degree!).

As far as heat absorption, if the intercooler is at a lower temperature than its surrounding environment, then its going to absorb heat. That's just a law of thermodynamics. So when you place a TMIC on top of a valve cover, if the TMIC is at a lower temperature than the valve cover, then it'll absorb heat from the available conduction and radiation. And, as that temperature difference increases, so does the heat transfer from one body to the other. But this also doesn't account for all of the other waste heat emitting bodies in an engine bay like the oil cooler, the turbo, the radiator, etc.

On the other hand, a FMIC has almost no heat input because the only warm body near it is the radiator. Since the radiator is behind the FMIC, and cars drive forward most of the time, the only mode of heat transfer going to the FMIC is going to be by radiation, which is consequently the weakest form of heat transfer. Of course when you stop there may be some convection, but the amount will be minimal because the core is in front of the radiator, as opposed to being on top of it.

And in regards to overheating a vehicle with a FMIC, that should only happen to poorly designed kits that use excessively large intercoolers. Also important, is the distance between the rear of the FMIC and the front of the radiator. If the FMIC is pressed against the radiator, then sure, virtually no air will pass through the mess of heat exchanger fins. But our FMIC for example is pulled away from the radiator so that if the car does get hot, the fans will turn on and air will be sucked in between the FMIC and the radiator. And from all of our testing and beating on our SPEED6 test car, we've never seen any evidence of overheating. None. So if you do your homework when looking to purchase an FMIC, there really shouldn't be any considerable drawbacks as compared to running a TMIC. There are many FMIC kits out there (for various vehicles) that are very well designed and have no consequences when changing fron a top mounted core to a front mounted one.

Although my argument is obviously slanted towards running FMIC's, TMIC's have their place too. They're cheaper, easier to install, and they help keep a sleeper profile if that's what you're after. So I don't think anyone can say a TMIC or FMIC is better than the other. It really depends on where they're placed, and how well the kits are designed since you can make both perform very well in specific applications.
 
Although my argument is obviously slanted towards running FMIC's, TMIC's have their place too. They're cheaper, easier to install, and they help keep a sleeper profile if that's what you're after. So I don't think anyone can say a TMIC or FMIC is better than the other. It really depends on where they're placed, and how well the kits are designed since you can make both perform very well in specific applications.

Truth! It really depends on what you want to use the car for. FMIC has a lot of advantages over TMIC if you are into going to the track. 45 seconds with aggressive throtle through first and second gears is a pretty good workout for this car. When you get back to pit you spend the entire time before the next run dumping ice on the top mount, rubbing ice on the "hot air intake" and spraying water on anything under the hood to cool it down.

Mazda did a pretty good job with the hood ducting. The only problem is heat has no way to get out. I would love to see a hood vent on this car so when you stop hot air can escape. You can see the wavy hot air pouring out of the sti's hood vent between runs.
 
The worst part about fmic has to be the couplings coming off when you run 25+psi.. I thought I blew my engine everytime it came off. But I don't run that that much on the ms3....yet.

I miss checking for boost leaks and finding power because of a leak.
 
Brian MP5T ... waiting for your reply to CP-E !

Here is a PDF for you to better understand! muah!

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/MazdaSPEED6_Intercooler_Research_PDF.pdf

you will see that not only does the TMIC absorb much of the waste heat from the engine after a wide open throttle run, but it also took about 4 minutes just to drop the outlet temperature a mere 20F! So this idea that the intercooler cools off quickly after a hard run is quite false.
 
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Brian MP5T ... waiting for your reply to CP-E !

Here is a PDF for you to better understand! muah!

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/MazdaSPEED6_Intercooler_Research_PDF.pdf

you will see that not only does the TMIC absorb much of the waste heat from the engine after a wide open throttle run, but it also took about 4 minutes just to drop the outlet temperature a mere 20F! So this idea that the intercooler cools off quickly after a hard run is quite false.


Good info!!!!

I don't see how any air to air tmic would be much better for our cars other then boost presure loss. This proves that top mounts just suck in gereral.
Yes some tmic's can be a little better then the stock one but untill you move the intercooler away from the engine it just won't be as efficent as a fmic. For our cars fmic's are just BETTER!
 
Don`t put nothing that don`t look good!! is what i say.Now look at the stock one and an aftermarket like ETS.Easthetic appeal and good quality craftsmanship is also an important factor.So Autoexe definately looks better and would no doubt perform well.
 
Brian MP5T ... waiting for your reply to CP-E !

Here is a PDF for you to better understand! muah!

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/MazdaSPEED6_Intercooler_Research_PDF.pdf

you will see that not only does the TMIC absorb much of the waste heat from the engine after a wide open throttle run, but it also took about 4 minutes just to drop the outlet temperature a mere 20F! So this idea that the intercooler cools off quickly after a hard run is quite false.

That is what I have been saying in all my posts. TMIC is good because...it can hold a lot of ice on top of it (huh) Ducting is a good idea for getting outside air on the top mount but is bad for letting hot air out.
 
Back on topic...

Lets say someone wanted to build their own front mount. What are some quality core manufacturers and what would be some things to look for when choosing which core to buy?
 
Back on topic...

Lets say someone wanted to build their own front mount. What are some quality core manufacturers and what would be some things to look for when choosing which core to buy?

Kosh, what do you hope to accomplish ? power wise ?

Key Factors: How well charge air flows, how well ambient air flows and how much heat can be transferred between the two. A good intercooler balances airflow and surface area for optimal performance.

(drinks)
 
Kosh, what do you hope to accomplish ? power wise ?

Key Factors: How well charge air flows, how well ambient air flows and how much heat can be transferred between the two. A good intercooler balances airflow and surface area for optimal performance.

(drinks)

I am mainly concerned with position of the intercooler. Any core that can handle 300-350 hp would be good. Not planning on going too crazy with power mods.
 
I am mainly concerned with position of the intercooler. Any core that can handle 300-350 hp would be good. Not planning on going too crazy with power mods.

by far, the best manufacturer in my opinion is Bell Intercoolers. Alot of companies actually purchase and rebrand their own from Bell.

Build your own! lots a great info! let me know if you need anything else!

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/
 

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