good price for an intercooler??
- Thread starter 07speed3
- Start date
Thats one of their prototypes. The one you buy now has the heat shield/ under hood duct sealing flange thingy (think thats the official technical term for it) bolted on. But it does not look any better than that picture posted above.
- :
- MP5T / 944
My God....
You are showing us how smart you really are...
A TMIC is basically the Perfect Design, much more desirable than the FMIC.
1. You said that all that "Hot Air" is blowing on the motor and warming it up... It's a Liquid Cooled Motor. Do you really think that a tiny amount if warm air will actually change anything? That "Hot Air" isn't really that hot, even under load. The Radiator is much hotter and it blows hot air all over the engine, that hot air is cooling the core of the motor. The Thermostat regulates the inside temperature of the motor so your statement is just Silly and irrelevent.
2. If both cores had the same thermal capabilities and pressure loss, the TMIC would be the 100% no brainer. You yourself seem to be so worried about the heatsoak that the TMIC will do to the outside of the engine.. What about covering the radiator. The radiator is 99% of the engines ability to remove heat and you basically moved a huge restrictor over it. Now your radiator has less ability to cool the motor because of your FMIC.
3. TMIC has way less plumbing to fill up, so the charge time is less.
Don't just say that the FMIC is better for stupid reasons, Think about what is actually going on and try to read mechanical journals and technical magazines, they are a good start.
If I could fit a good TMIC on my car I would have done it 4 Years ago.
(jerkit)
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What?? You make it sound like the hot air coming from the radiator is gona hit the fmic.
What's what about my post, Cash said hot air from the TMIC would be a problem. I was simply implying that hot air from the rad hits the side of the engine and it doesn't cause heat problems, am I wrong in this assumption? Brian MP5T went into more detail with what I was trying to say.
The 3 cars I've owned have all been turbo cars, 2 factory and 1 after market, so I'm not a moron when it comes to how TMIC, FMIC, and no IC at all, work in a turbo car.
The 3 cars I've owned have all been turbo cars, 2 factory and 1 after market, so I'm not a moron when it comes to how TMIC, FMIC, and no IC at all, work in a turbo car.
My God....
You are showing us how smart you really are...
A: Thanks, I strive for it! No need to be a dick Brian ... you have good info, please share.
A TMIC is basically the Perfect Design, much more desirable than the FMIC.
A: Desireable in who's mind? you're own? You take a poll of how many people would prefer a FMIC to a TMIC, and the FMIC will win.
1. You said that all that "Hot Air" is blowing on the motor and warming it up... It's a Liquid Cooled Motor. Do you really think that a tiny amount if warm air will actually change anything? That "Hot Air" isn't really that hot, even under load. The Radiator is much hotter and it blows hot air all over the engine, that hot air is cooling the core of the motor. The Thermostat regulates the inside temperature of the motor so your statement is just Silly and irrelevent.
A: Liquid cooled gaurenteed. However, how does that liquid cool? BY AIR. A tiny amount of warm air? I have a temp sensor on the inside of my engine bay, on normal days (80-85 degrees) temps stay right around 160-170 (runs as hott as 180-190 on some dayz). That doesn't seem warm, more like HOT. How far is the radiator away from the block of an MS3? a good, 6-8 inches. How far is the TMIC away from the block? Approx 1.5"-2 inches. The hott air coming from the Radiator has much more room to disperse throughout the engine bay and even underneathe. All the air directed at the TMIC has NO WHERE TO GO except RIGHT ON TOP OF THE ENGINE.
2. If both cores had the same thermal capabilities and pressure loss, the TMIC would be the 100% no brainer. You yourself seem to be so worried about the heatsoak that the TMIC will do to the outside of the engine.. What about covering the radiator. The radiator is 99% of the engines ability to remove heat and you basically moved a huge restrictor over it. Now your radiator has less ability to cool the motor because of your FMIC.
A: But you forget, the temps now entering the motor are much closer to ambient temp then a TMIC. Not understanding this statement. "You yourself seem to be so worried about the heatsoak that the TMIC will do to the outside of the engine.." Not worried to what the heatsoak will do to my engine but actually the reverse. Trying to get the coolest air to my engine and vise versa. If you have a TMIC sitting right on top of the engine, sitting still, ur toast. While a FMIC rests outside the engine bay in the ambient temp.
3. TMIC has way less plumbing to fill up, so the charge time is less.
A: I do agree with you here. Lot less plumbing = less time that air takes to get to the intake manifold
Don't just say that the FMIC is better for stupid reasons, Think about what is actually going on and try to read mechanical journals and technical magazines, they are a good start.
A: I didn't say a FMIC was better for stupid reasons. I have read many technical magazines and studied several books as well, what's your point here? There are obvious advantages to both a tmic and a fmic, i just feel the advantages to a FMIC outweigh that of a TMIC.
If I could fit a good TMIC on my car I would have done it 4 Years ago.
A: Good for you. Anything can be done with the right amount of $$$
Conclusion: At stock power, no need to upgrade. A TMIC obviously gets the job done. Whether you want to go bigger power in the future is all up to. My statement wasn't saying the hott air was damaging the engine in any way, but the fact that because it does hit the top of the engine and have no where to go. Heated air lacks the density to make higher horsepower, increases detonation and forces the ECU to pull timing. All of which reduce the power you are looking to create.
Since Installing My FMIC: I have noticed no increase in turbo lag/charge times and don't get heatsoak half as fast.
EDIT: I forgot to mention issues with the radiator. A free flowing bar/fin style FMIC should have no issues. Thick (4.5"+) FMIC's can have issues restricting air flow to the radiator, but nothing under that is my opinion. I also have the ducts (that were once directed to the FMIC, now directed to the radiator behind the fmic.) The fact that the FMIC is about 1/3 the size of the radiator, is another thing. The surface area of the radiator gets the job done no matter what.
I have suffered no rise in temps from a FMIC thus feeling, my radiator is still doing its job !!!
You are showing us how smart you really are...
A: Thanks, I strive for it! No need to be a dick Brian ... you have good info, please share.
A TMIC is basically the Perfect Design, much more desirable than the FMIC.
A: Desireable in who's mind? you're own? You take a poll of how many people would prefer a FMIC to a TMIC, and the FMIC will win.
1. You said that all that "Hot Air" is blowing on the motor and warming it up... It's a Liquid Cooled Motor. Do you really think that a tiny amount if warm air will actually change anything? That "Hot Air" isn't really that hot, even under load. The Radiator is much hotter and it blows hot air all over the engine, that hot air is cooling the core of the motor. The Thermostat regulates the inside temperature of the motor so your statement is just Silly and irrelevent.
A: Liquid cooled gaurenteed. However, how does that liquid cool? BY AIR. A tiny amount of warm air? I have a temp sensor on the inside of my engine bay, on normal days (80-85 degrees) temps stay right around 160-170 (runs as hott as 180-190 on some dayz). That doesn't seem warm, more like HOT. How far is the radiator away from the block of an MS3? a good, 6-8 inches. How far is the TMIC away from the block? Approx 1.5"-2 inches. The hott air coming from the Radiator has much more room to disperse throughout the engine bay and even underneathe. All the air directed at the TMIC has NO WHERE TO GO except RIGHT ON TOP OF THE ENGINE.
2. If both cores had the same thermal capabilities and pressure loss, the TMIC would be the 100% no brainer. You yourself seem to be so worried about the heatsoak that the TMIC will do to the outside of the engine.. What about covering the radiator. The radiator is 99% of the engines ability to remove heat and you basically moved a huge restrictor over it. Now your radiator has less ability to cool the motor because of your FMIC.
A: But you forget, the temps now entering the motor are much closer to ambient temp then a TMIC. Not understanding this statement. "You yourself seem to be so worried about the heatsoak that the TMIC will do to the outside of the engine.." Not worried to what the heatsoak will do to my engine but actually the reverse. Trying to get the coolest air to my engine and vise versa. If you have a TMIC sitting right on top of the engine, sitting still, ur toast. While a FMIC rests outside the engine bay in the ambient temp.
3. TMIC has way less plumbing to fill up, so the charge time is less.
A: I do agree with you here. Lot less plumbing = less time that air takes to get to the intake manifold
Don't just say that the FMIC is better for stupid reasons, Think about what is actually going on and try to read mechanical journals and technical magazines, they are a good start.
A: I didn't say a FMIC was better for stupid reasons. I have read many technical magazines and studied several books as well, what's your point here? There are obvious advantages to both a tmic and a fmic, i just feel the advantages to a FMIC outweigh that of a TMIC.
If I could fit a good TMIC on my car I would have done it 4 Years ago.
A: Good for you. Anything can be done with the right amount of $$$
Conclusion: At stock power, no need to upgrade. A TMIC obviously gets the job done. Whether you want to go bigger power in the future is all up to. My statement wasn't saying the hott air was damaging the engine in any way, but the fact that because it does hit the top of the engine and have no where to go. Heated air lacks the density to make higher horsepower, increases detonation and forces the ECU to pull timing. All of which reduce the power you are looking to create.
Since Installing My FMIC: I have noticed no increase in turbo lag/charge times and don't get heatsoak half as fast.
EDIT: I forgot to mention issues with the radiator. A free flowing bar/fin style FMIC should have no issues. Thick (4.5"+) FMIC's can have issues restricting air flow to the radiator, but nothing under that is my opinion. I also have the ducts (that were once directed to the FMIC, now directed to the radiator behind the fmic.) The fact that the FMIC is about 1/3 the size of the radiator, is another thing. The surface area of the radiator gets the job done no matter what.
I have suffered no rise in temps from a FMIC thus feeling, my radiator is still doing its job !!!
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I would rather go fmic than tmic because the tmic does get freaking hot between runs during auto-x and if we are running 2 drivers on the car that day 8x runs in 45 minutes that whole engine bay is melting.
Run the car with ice on top of the tmic and and it is gone before you even get up to the start line. Heat is going to rise off the engine and go right through the intercooler when the car is off.
You can watch the sti out there with the hood scoop hot air just waving out between runs. With hood scoop hot air can get out when you stop and cool air can get in when you are going.
Maybe it is a personal preference but I would rather have a 1/4 second more boost lag than heat soak.
Lucky for me the class I am running in now you can't upgrade your intercooler so I just staying stock (doughpoke
Run the car with ice on top of the tmic and and it is gone before you even get up to the start line. Heat is going to rise off the engine and go right through the intercooler when the car is off.
You can watch the sti out there with the hood scoop hot air just waving out between runs. With hood scoop hot air can get out when you stop and cool air can get in when you are going.
Maybe it is a personal preference but I would rather have a 1/4 second more boost lag than heat soak.
Lucky for me the class I am running in now you can't upgrade your intercooler so I just staying stock (doughpoke
That's cool, I was just saying. Anyway, I guess I forgot to add my 2 other cents, I would prefer a FMIC just for the efficiency advantage over the TMIC, but as my car is 99.98% stock right now, the factory TMIC works fine for me.
As for air-to-water, I knew someone with that setup on a supercharged car and it heat soaked FAST! If done properly I guess it might have it's place, this guys used the coolant overflow bottle for it water, but it really seemed better suited to dragracing over street/track driving.
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mrlilguy157
Member
- :
- 07 mazdaspeed 3
ALcohol injection is the best way to go these days.Mega fast hi-tech cooling
true.
personally i prefer a TMIC for sleeper look and for the fact that ETS has a lifetime warranty on it, and they personally told me if I don't like it, then send it back for a full refund.
Sooo... Are there better looking TMICs for the pricepoint of $500-$600? The $1100 one looks good, as well it damned better! I just want to bolt something on that looks cool under the hood - but given a choice between performance and aesthetics I'll choose performance everytime. Anybody have the Auto EXE one yet? How's that ETS one working? What kind of gains am I looking at??
mrlilguy157
Member
- :
- 07 mazdaspeed 3
Call ETS and ask the guys what the Mazdaspeed 3 3.5" core TMIC is flow rated at, and then ask him to convince you to buy it, you'll like what you hear, i gauruntee it.
ETS is the way to go. Lifetime warranty. Returns if you're unsatisfied. There is no way I could justify buying AutoEXE's because its 'pretty'.
justa4banger
Member
- :
- 2007 SILVER MS3
Here's my 2 cents.
The factory TMIC is a very effective unit, given the elaborate duct design under the hood to promote good airflow. Down fall is it suffers from Heat soak. You can feel this heat soak for sure and the car feels like a bit of a dog initially starting, BUT by 30 mph or so the power is back and the MS3 is off to the races. So what did you really lose? Being that the MS3 is FWD and already suffers from having to much trq down low in the rpm band............. my question still remains WHAT DID YOU LOSE?
A PROPERLY designed FMIC would be MORE effective at keeping this heat soak from happening AS MUCH, but Most FMIC will limit flow of air due to poor choice of IC core.
these cars are not the typical turbo cars that run 8-10 psi, we hit 17 or so and maintain 15 + psi. With this said the Engine needs a IC that has very good flow characteristics and minimal pressure drop. the ETS IC makes a bit more power due to the fact it flows better and this helps the turbo not work so damn hard.
Though Cashmere's FMIC is very nice and i applaud him for doing it on his own work, i would be curious to see if his setup is able to maintain the same power level as the TMIC. WHY.......... due to the pressure drop. I know i have mentioned this before to Cahsmere and to others. IN hot summer conditions he would feel the difference of the FMIC i agree, but in total hp, the IC could be a bottle neck. Best way to test, would be to have a boost guage on the intake and one on the turbo and measure the difference in boost. Or even better do a dyno in cooler weather to get over the fact that on a dyno , no fan can simulate the airflow, the ducting is providing the TMIC.
IN my own testing and experience I tried 3 different IC's on my SVO. the Stock TMIC (very poor cooling effeciency due to improper placement) and 2 FMIC's that had same core measurements but were setup differently in core design. One core was designed to be very effecient at cooling the air charge/Poor airflow, the other core was designed to promote good air flow/Poor cooling (i use poor to say less than the other IC) characteristics. In the end the one with LESS PRESURE DROP MADE MORE POWER WITH LESS BOOST.
BTW my SVO made 322whp and 346wtrq with 26psi and 31*total timing (thats alot of timing) Also peak trq was at 4200rpm full boost at 3800rpm
Changed the IC to a core with the SAME overal dimension, but better FLOW, new numbers are 324whp and 379wtrq. Also the peak trq now starts at 3700ish rpm and full boost at 3400.
So the power comes on sooner holds on a bit alonger and i make more TRQ with less strain on the turbo. Also i can reduce the timing to help shy away a chance of detonation The change of the IC was VERY measurable on the BUTT dyno and later verified on the same dyno used for the previous test.
So what i recommend to any owner that is going to go with ANY AFTERMARKET IC , whether it be a TMIC or FMIC, GO WITH A CORE THAT FLOWS THE MOST. Pressure drop for our cars is HIGHLY underestimated and need to be in the equation for finding a IC that can help you make more power. the cooling properties are important BUT SO IS FLOW.
If you want more info Please search for my old posts.
The factory TMIC is a very effective unit, given the elaborate duct design under the hood to promote good airflow. Down fall is it suffers from Heat soak. You can feel this heat soak for sure and the car feels like a bit of a dog initially starting, BUT by 30 mph or so the power is back and the MS3 is off to the races. So what did you really lose? Being that the MS3 is FWD and already suffers from having to much trq down low in the rpm band............. my question still remains WHAT DID YOU LOSE?
A PROPERLY designed FMIC would be MORE effective at keeping this heat soak from happening AS MUCH, but Most FMIC will limit flow of air due to poor choice of IC core.
these cars are not the typical turbo cars that run 8-10 psi, we hit 17 or so and maintain 15 + psi. With this said the Engine needs a IC that has very good flow characteristics and minimal pressure drop. the ETS IC makes a bit more power due to the fact it flows better and this helps the turbo not work so damn hard.
Though Cashmere's FMIC is very nice and i applaud him for doing it on his own work, i would be curious to see if his setup is able to maintain the same power level as the TMIC. WHY.......... due to the pressure drop. I know i have mentioned this before to Cahsmere and to others. IN hot summer conditions he would feel the difference of the FMIC i agree, but in total hp, the IC could be a bottle neck. Best way to test, would be to have a boost guage on the intake and one on the turbo and measure the difference in boost. Or even better do a dyno in cooler weather to get over the fact that on a dyno , no fan can simulate the airflow, the ducting is providing the TMIC.
IN my own testing and experience I tried 3 different IC's on my SVO. the Stock TMIC (very poor cooling effeciency due to improper placement) and 2 FMIC's that had same core measurements but were setup differently in core design. One core was designed to be very effecient at cooling the air charge/Poor airflow, the other core was designed to promote good air flow/Poor cooling (i use poor to say less than the other IC) characteristics. In the end the one with LESS PRESURE DROP MADE MORE POWER WITH LESS BOOST.
BTW my SVO made 322whp and 346wtrq with 26psi and 31*total timing (thats alot of timing) Also peak trq was at 4200rpm full boost at 3800rpm
Changed the IC to a core with the SAME overal dimension, but better FLOW, new numbers are 324whp and 379wtrq. Also the peak trq now starts at 3700ish rpm and full boost at 3400.
So the power comes on sooner holds on a bit alonger and i make more TRQ with less strain on the turbo. Also i can reduce the timing to help shy away a chance of detonation The change of the IC was VERY measurable on the BUTT dyno and later verified on the same dyno used for the previous test.
So what i recommend to any owner that is going to go with ANY AFTERMARKET IC , whether it be a TMIC or FMIC, GO WITH A CORE THAT FLOWS THE MOST. Pressure drop for our cars is HIGHLY underestimated and need to be in the equation for finding a IC that can help you make more power. the cooling properties are important BUT SO IS FLOW.
If you want more info Please search for my old posts.
mrlilguy157
Member
- :
- 07 mazdaspeed 3
and here is my reply.
you're very logical and have my utmost respect.
when I talked to Tom (IIRC) at ETS, he told me the ETS 3.5" core for the mazdaspeed3/6 TMIC is flowrated at 400hp (whatever CFM that equals) and that is only at 80%, so that they can garuntee those numbers. really, in good, positive conditions, you could see mid-upper 400's. He also told me heat soak will occur when the car sits still, but with the design of the intercooler and shroud, the IC would be cool to the touch if you drove on the highway then pulled over to check it.
He also told me they have a lifetime warranty against leaks, cracks, and welds, and anything else of that nature. thats why I say ETS ftw
you're very logical and have my utmost respect.
when I talked to Tom (IIRC) at ETS, he told me the ETS 3.5" core for the mazdaspeed3/6 TMIC is flowrated at 400hp (whatever CFM that equals) and that is only at 80%, so that they can garuntee those numbers. really, in good, positive conditions, you could see mid-upper 400's. He also told me heat soak will occur when the car sits still, but with the design of the intercooler and shroud, the IC would be cool to the touch if you drove on the highway then pulled over to check it.
He also told me they have a lifetime warranty against leaks, cracks, and welds, and anything else of that nature. thats why I say ETS ftw
justa4banger
Member
- :
- 2007 SILVER MS3
(uhm)
Please don't think i was attacking your FMIC, its very nice work, hell if you were closer i would have you do the pipes on the SVO.
As for the ETS TMIC i can see how it can make more power since it flows better.
Best recommendation for anyone serious about turbo engines is corky bells MAXIMUM BOOST book. I didn't get smart over night, i educated myself and then tested my own thoughts. (2thumbs)
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- MP5T / 944
CaSHMeRe
Your reply to my post was your regular "Non Useful Opinionated" Dribble..
I particularly love how just by reading your answers, a person can tell how little you know and how you are struggling to sound like you understand.
Plate and Bar, no matter how it's built will block airflow.
You have reduced the cooling systems integrity.
The Pitiful amount of heat generated by the TMIC to the Engine is 0.01% of the heat that the engine removes with coolant.
The "Heat Soak" that you are worried about in traffic or Stopped is gone in 1 Second after driving.
It's not a personal attack, I just can't stand when people reply and mislead the members of this forum in general.
Your reply to my post was your regular "Non Useful Opinionated" Dribble..
I particularly love how just by reading your answers, a person can tell how little you know and how you are struggling to sound like you understand.
Plate and Bar, no matter how it's built will block airflow.
You have reduced the cooling systems integrity.
The Pitiful amount of heat generated by the TMIC to the Engine is 0.01% of the heat that the engine removes with coolant.
The "Heat Soak" that you are worried about in traffic or Stopped is gone in 1 Second after driving.
It's not a personal attack, I just can't stand when people reply and mislead the members of this forum in general.
