Game On Again

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Hey Laloosh

Coupla things:

MLC's question about using a MAP clamp to defeat the boost cut in 1st and 2nd gear intrigues me and I was thinking along those lines as well.

If the MAP clamp is allowing higher boost, than maybe we don't need a BC and it's a seriously cheap mod.

Have you tried making a couple runs in your car with everything else as is and the MAP removed or wired around?

Would be some valuable data as to whether or not this is a really cheap way to gain some free power.

Thanks!!
 
for the 3rd time. i was hitting 19psi before i installed the map clamp, it would shot up to 19 hold, cut, climb to 19 hold cut. installed the map clamp and it holds 19 without cutting
 
How are you going ensure that there is no fuel leak-down when the pump is operating on your car? How are you going to verify the operation of the pump throughout its entire operating range? How are you going to verify the clearances when you don't have the measured efficiency data. How can you ensure reproducibility in flow rate from pump to pump? They do vary somewhat.

There's a reason why APR bought a $100,000 testing rig, and aren't just running the pump on a car for ten minutes. I would think that for an investment that big there was some reason behind it...

These are the most rediculous questions Ive ever heard. AT and APR have been going at it for a while now... other companies too, and more to come.

Dont try to reinvent the wheel here. Jon is gonna do EXACTLY what CPE is gonna do.

Hes going to sell kits within tolerances, tested by reputable companies.

And as far as that goes..... if anybody wants an APR pump.... well then Jon can probably get you one of those kits too. I was offered an APR kit several weeks ago, and turned it down. Id rather wait. And now Im glad i did.

If somebody makes something better flowing than AT's I'll probably go with that eventually to, because I gaurantee that even the AT is going to max out well below my power goal.
 
for the 3rd time. i was hitting 19psi before i installed the map clamp, it would shot up to 19 hold, cut, climb to 19 hold cut. installed the map clamp and it holds 19 without cutting

Could the cut you were experiencing prior to the MAP clamp have been nothing more than the ECU doing a lousy (read abrupt instead of smooth) job of preventing overboost when it saw the 19 psi? We keep looking for complicated explanations for what is going on, and maybe it is just that simple. You put the clamp on and the ECU doesn't try to protect the engine from overboosting so no more cut. Running the higher boost into higher rpms then requires the better fuel pump to keep up.

I am still curious if a clamp set to a very low psi could prevent the low gear boost cut. It obviously wouldn't stop the throttle position limits tied to wheel position at low speed, but it would be a start.
Your car probably spiked to 19 and now holds at 19 with the clamp on because with your particular exhaust and intake mods, that is what it is capable of developing. I bet if you opened things up even more, you would need to put something in there to limit max boost.
 
These are the most rediculous questions Ive ever heard. AT and APR have been going at it for a while now... other companies too, and more to come.

Dont try to reinvent the wheel here. Jon is gonna do EXACTLY what CPE is gonna do.

Hes going to sell kits within tolerances, tested by reputable companies.
They look to be perfectly valid questions to me. Please enlighten us to why they are "rediculous" questions. Is Jon going to perform all of those tests individually with each pump he sells or is he not? CP-E says they will of course we will see when you can actually get one. But I think they have a little more at stake as a company than Jon does as an individual student.
The fact that i have not seen any flow data or dyno's done before and after the PG/lilguy pump is pretty ridiculous when people go around spouting that it flows more. So far I havent seen any proof or data that wasn't purely anecdotal concerning the pumps performance. I consider my self pretty vendor neutral. I do my homework then i buy what i think is the best product. Until I see data proving the pumps viability as a functional higher flowing upgrade I am not buying anything. (CPE or PG/lilguy)
 
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Every cp-e pump will be flow tested over the entire rpm range. They will be leak down tested and tested for operational service at max flow for a specified time period (45 min @ max flow IIRC). They are assembled in a clean room and the internals are specially coated to prevent abrasion and improve operation. None of these things are done with the PG pumps.

These are the most rediculous questions Ive ever heard. AT and APR have been going at it for a while now... other companies too, and more to come.

Dont try to reinvent the wheel here. Jon is gonna do EXACTLY what CPE is gonna do.

Hes going to sell kits within tolerances, tested by reputable companies.

And as far as that goes..... if anybody wants an APR pump.... well then Jon can probably get you one of those kits too. I was offered an APR kit several weeks ago, and turned it down. Id rather wait. And now Im glad i did.

THat's interesting. Why are you glad you waited?
 
That's your opinion. Thanks. I just wish there were some other "results" to compare to instead of all of your bulls***. No proof, just a bunch of "i did this and this is what I got."
 
u know im still down for that lil race. let me know when u want to get embarassed on video, well meet half way. Last time u called my results bulls*** u looked liek a fool. look how many ms3s are sputtering and running out of fuel with little to no mods. Do you want to look like a fool again? if the answer is yes, keep posting.

btw what your take on my signal being clamped to 17 and the car still holding 19? According to your theory i should be running LESS than 15 being that the map sees beyond 15, so in theory it should back the boost down till its sees 15.6
 
I don't believe you when you say that turning down your map clamp voltage did not affect your boost. What do you propose is controlling your boost then? THere is no way for the car to regulate the boost if it doesn't know what the boost is. The way your (lack of) theory works, the car would just dial up whatever boost it wanted based on the availability of fuel. Except, again, it doesn't know what it's boost is b/c you've clamped your map. s*** doesn't just happen without an explanation. Think about it b4 replying. Why would sending a different signal to the ecu from the MAP sensor not affect boost if the MAP sensor, as you've stated, is only there for boost cut.
 
Boost wouldn't go down it would go up. The ECU sees less boost than it is commanding the WG solenoid to produce, so the ECU tells the solenoid to open even more which should create more boost. And it isn't a proportional theory, it IS how the ECU controls the WG solenoid. Its a PID (Proportional, Integral, Derivative) control loop. The ECU uses this exact type of control for many things in the car including boost control, AFR control (closed loop mode), and Speed (cruise) control. Its an industry standard type of controller thats been around for +50 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_controller

The fact that his boost isn't changing just means that there is something else in the system that is limiting boost to 19psi or the ECU isn't really sending the WG solenoid 100% duty cycle. Whatever it is, it proves that we really don't know what is going on and how the factory boost control really works. I trust laloosh's data fully. But it just raises more questions than it answers.

And Mid_Life_Crisis is correct about Drivers data. Since he has a boost controller hooked up, its a whole different ball game from laloosh.


Up, down, whatever. How can somone say it "IS" how the ECU controls the WG solenoid, then 2 seconds later state, "there is something else in the system that is limiting boost to 19psi..." "...it proves we really dont know..."

EXACTLY. If it "IS" how it works, why doesn't it? Why hasn't anyone miraculously stated that after a map clamp or atp bcd their boost magically went up? Takes the "IS" out of the equation no?

Loosh, and anyone else who performs intake/exhaust mods is increasing efficiency, thus resulting in a few psi of extra boost. The ECU allows very little additional boost (READ- boost cut) when simple bolt on's are installed. Once a map clamp or bcd is installed, the efficiency which was increased from the intake/exhaust mods to this system dont just disappear. The stock boost control system, etc, is designed to operate within set parameters. As you start changing the intake, intercooler, exhaust, etc, the system as a whole starts operating out of range (hence the boost cut). Eliminate the boost cut with a map clamp or bcd and the factory boost control system due to the increased efficiency of the mods will allow/generate a bit more boost. Pretty general. Why is 19psi seem to be what these mods will produce with the factory boost control system? Well, the boost cut is removed via the map clamp, efficiency of the turbosystem as a whole has increased. What more is there to talk about?

You can google and wiki as much as you'd like for technical jargon, but what I explained above is general common knowledge for the regular "guy."

Why are so many people into "why" loosh can boost 19 psi on the stock boost control system? Others have reported 19psi + with mods w/out a boost controller as well, its just that perhaps they didn't install a map clamp or bcd to help with boost cut at that time.

voltage clamps (or FCD's is what they used to be called in the old days) have been around for a LONG time. The general description explained here is nothing new, nor the reason why someone installed a map clamp to begin with.

The CPE standback has a built in adjustable clamp and it controls boost pressure. So what? Whats the difference of running a standback zero'd out, but utilizing it as a map clamp and boost control running 19psi vs. what Loosh or others have done with map clamps, with or without boost controls at 19psi? Nothing.
 
Up, down, whatever. How can somone say it "IS" how the ECU controls the WG solenoid, then 2 seconds later state, "there is something else in the system that is limiting boost to 19psi..." "...it proves we really dont know..."

EXACTLY. If it "IS" how it works, why doesn't it? Why hasn't anyone miraculously stated that after a map clamp or atp bcd their boost magically went up? Takes the "IS" out of the equation no?

Loosh, and anyone else who performs intake/exhaust mods is increasing efficiency, thus resulting in a few psi of extra boost. The ECU allows very little additional boost (READ- boost cut) when simple bolt on's are installed. Once a map clamp or bcd is installed, the efficiency which was increased from the intake/exhaust mods to this system dont just disappear. The stock boost control system, etc, is designed to operate within set parameters. As you start changing the intake, intercooler, exhaust, etc, the system as a whole starts operating out of range (hence the boost cut). Eliminate the boost cut with a map clamp or bcd and the factory boost control system due to the increased efficiency of the mods will allow/generate a bit more boost. Pretty general. Why is 19psi seem to be what these mods will produce with the factory boost control system? Well, the boost cut is removed via the map clamp, efficiency of the turbosystem as a whole has increased. What more is there to talk about?

You can google and wiki as much as you'd like for technical jargon, but what I explained above is general common knowledge for the regular "guy."

Why are so many people into "why" loosh can boost 19 psi on the stock boost control system? Others have reported 19psi + with mods w/out a boost controller as well, its just that perhaps they didn't install a map clamp or bcd to help with boost cut at that time.

voltage clamps (or FCD's is what they used to be called in the old days) have been around for a LONG time. The general description explained here is nothing new, nor the reason why someone installed a map clamp to begin with.

The CPE standback has a built in adjustable clamp and it controls boost pressure. So what? Whats the difference of running a standback zero'd out, but utilizing it as a map clamp and boost control running 19psi vs. what Loosh or others have done with map clamps, with or without boost controls at 19psi? Nothing.

no differnce? lol try over 500 dollars lol
 
It's not about what the turbo can produce. It's about how the boost is regulated. Laloosh has lied to his ecu (map clamp) and told it a boost value that is not the factory setting. The ecu will decrease/increase the WG duty cycle to try and get back to the factory boost setting except that it can't. In other words, Laloosh's ecu is seeing 14 psi (or whatever he set it to) from it's MAP sensor. This is below the factory setting of 15.6 psi. The ecu will then decrease the WG duty cycle to create more boost to get to 15.6 psi. It uses a simple proportion loop (not a PID loop) to decide how much or how little to increase or decrease the WGDC. .Because 14 and 15.6 are close, the proportion term is low and the decrease in the WGDC was not that much resulting in only 19 psi.
 
READ MY POSTS. Why didnt my boost go down when i clamped it at 17.x psi? The car still held 19psi before cutting, then it went up to 19, held it, cut...ect ect

If you want ill dial in the boost to read EXACTLY 15.6 and take a video of the boost guage and the DH reading boost side by side. This will however be wasting my time, but in ure case, it might be worth shutting u up about this
 
I don't believe you when you say that turning down your map clamp voltage did not affect your boost. What do you propose is controlling your boost then? THere is no way for the car to regulate the boost if it doesn't know what the boost is. The way your (lack of) theory works, the car would just dial up whatever boost it wanted based on the availability of fuel. Except, again, it doesn't know what it's boost is b/c you've clamped your map. s*** doesn't just happen without an explanation. Think about it b4 replying. Why would sending a different signal to the ecu from the MAP sensor not affect boost if the MAP sensor, as you've stated, is only there for boost cut.
 
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