Game On Again

[mrlilguy157]

thanks tim. ill let you know when I get pump cores in, as well as the upgrade kits. Really, all of this question and doubt about AT products will diminish in 3 weeks time (if parts get here as they're expected to).

 

[nypest]

lol.... I have a feeling that this question is going to have to be answered 100 times in every new discussion about the fuel pumps for awhile.

Not from me im sold!!!




had to fix the post i F'ed it up lol

 

[nypest]

thanks tim. ill let you know when I get pump cores in, as well as the upgrade kits. Really, all of this question and doubt about AT products will diminish in 3 weeks time (if parts get here as they're expected to).

Great! keep me posted

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

So I went out and tested this theory also. At 4v i hit 19psi and cut. At 3.75v 19psi and no cut. At 3.5v 19psi and no cut. At 3.0v 19psi and no cut. At 2.0v 19psi and no cut. Again who came up with this idea????????????????That was a waste of 30 minutes of my time.

Your results were exactly what I would expect. You also have something installed to limit maximum boost to your target, which Laloosh does not.
Changing the MAP clamp voltage should not change your maximum boost, as far as I can tell. The system thinks it is seeing a certain boost because you have told it (via the clamp) what boost you want it to "see". The stock boost controller is therefore effectively bypassed. My initial concern was that with the stock boost control bypassed and nothing installed to take its place, the car could then go and build however much boost it was capable of, with no selectable control to limit just how high that was.
I also had the belief that timing and perhaps a/f ratios would change depending on the level the MAP was set to. Logically, you would expect different boost levels to call for different amounts of timing, wouldn't you?
Laloosh did some datalogging from runs at different MAP settings and it turns out that none of these things changed, so now I don't know what to think.

 

[Haltech]

If CP-E uses different internals, of course their pump is going to flow less than the Lilguy pump. Don't you think a lot of research went into this? Geez, no one bothers to search previous topics around here. Whippin a dead horse around here!

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

So I went out and tested this theory also. At 4v i hit 19psi and cut. At 3.75v 19psi and no cut. At 3.5v 19psi and no cut. At 3.0v 19psi and no cut. At 2.0v 19psi and no cut. Again who came up with this idea????????????????That was a waste of 30 minutes of my time.

I am curious if you noticed any difference in first or second gear when you set the clamp to the lowest boost setting. I imagine that you did your runs in 3rd or 4th. I wonder if telling the ECU that the car is never making more than 4 or 5 pounds of boost would effectively eliminate the low gear cut.

 

[nypest]

I am curious if you noticed any difference in first or second gear when you set the clamp to the lowest boost setting. I imagine that you did your runs in 3rd or 4th. I wonder if telling the ECU that the car is never making more than 4 or 5 pounds of boost would effectively eliminate the low gear cut.

prob only by a few(2-3) PSI!

 

[laloosh]

I don't believe you when you say that turning down your map clamp voltage did not affect your boost. What do you propose is controlling your boost then? THere is no way for the car to regulate the boost if it doesn't know what the boost is. The way your (lack of) theory works, the car would just dial up whatever boost it wanted based on the availability of fuel. Except, again, it doesn't know what it's boost is b/c you've clamped your map. s*** doesn't just happen without an explanation. Think about it b4 replying. Why would sending a different signal to the ecu from the MAP sensor not affect boost if the MAP sensor, as you've stated, is only there for boost cut.



You can't compare anything about the flow characteristics of my or the PG pumps b/c the PG pumps have not been flow tested. There is no data there.. Also, in terms of waiting, AFAIK no one has pumps available right now so you'll be waiting for either pump.



cp-e did not talk down the PG pump. THey advertised their own pump as being rigorously flow tested and 100% guaranteed to work. That's it. Any supposition on your or anyone else's part is due to your own doubt about the PG pump b/c of a lack of flow testing for those pumps. End of story.



This is a lie. PG's pumps have not been flow tested so any talk of comparative flow rates is complete B.S. You have to know what the flow rate is before comparing it to anything.



Here's an interesting point. Think there is any bias on this forum? You PG fanboys are all quiet about the failed internals of the PG pump. Autotek outsourced their internals and quality went to s*** and they failed in pumps yet no one talks about it. Imagine the posts of cp-e hatred if one of theirs had failed.

my results never make sense to you, but face it. your theory doesnt work on my car. i turned it up to 17.x psi and guess what my boost did not lower, it still hit and held 19, according to your proportion theory i should have held less then 15


btw, the cpe and pg pump ARE THE SAME s*** with different internals. Stop believing everything that company inbeds into your head. Fanbois? i told u flat out pumps are failing, the whole board knows pumps are failing, but guess what they still rather go with pg over cpe...that right there should ring a bell in your head. This isnt m3f where every1 is loyal to cpe, this is 247 where people arnt brainwashed. Btw u do nothing butdisagree with hard results, go back to the 6 side and blow up

 

[palerider]

What blows my mind is that CPE..... KNOWS THIS... about the flow rates. Theres nothing to test. Its all been tested. And they keep talking about this bulls***, like their the ones who "are figuring it all out".

So full of a load of crap... talking about this and that. EVERYBODY knows what the deal is with the pumps from PG/Mrlilguy. Its been out in the open for a while now. And the one thing that isnt debated is that once a pump is assembled correctly and doesnt seize on a car..... that the AT mrlilguy pump has the best flow..and its gonna be MUCH cheaper.

I really cant stand cPE. Im beginning to hate my damn standback, just cause their names on it.

 

[laloosh]

lol more people starting to see 'the light'

 

[nypest]

lol more people starting to see 'the light'

Chris man have a coke and a smile (stash) you have done alot for the MS3 side of all of this, your car runs hard and you helped save (ME i know) and i am sure many others lots of money in usless mods(thank you again). People are always gonna have s*** to say. Through all the BS ppl cant deny your data. SO back to work the coat tales are getting shorter bu the day.... lol

 

[laloosh]

i dont like coke(braindead
lol, certain things just anger me when with it comes to car so ill continue to state my opinion and testing in MY threads....(breakn)

 

[nypest]

i dont like coke(braindead
lol, certain things just anger me when with it comes to car so ill continue to state my opinion and testing in MY threads....(breakn)

lol I was just messing man. Looks like my pump will be here soon ordered the day after your DL's went up!!

 

[shucky]

you know, I can understand what dada is saying, but it appears the signal being sent to the factory boost control solenoid is not being altered even though the map clamp is in place. If what he said "was" true, with it being proportional, people having fuel cut issues with similar mods as loosh that installed the ATP BCD (and NO boost controller) would experience reduced boost as well (since it creates an air leak and false reading to the map), and we know that is not true. Loosh has always been a straight shooter around here, and have no reason to doubt him. Plus he is not the only one to install a map clamp, BCD, etc w/out a boost controller. Everyone who installed an ATP BCD early on (before voltage clamps became popular) to rid themselves of boost cut would have complained their boost was gone after installation. They haven't, and never did. I dont claim to have the answer, but I know the proportional theory is not it.

 

[Bravnik]

So I went out and tested this theory also. At 4v i hit 19psi and cut. At 3.75v 19psi and no cut. At 3.5v 19psi and no cut. At 3.0v 19psi and no cut. At 2.0v 19psi and no cut. Again who came up with this idea????????????????That was a waste of 30 minutes of my time.

Are you talking Boost Cut here or the sputter? Reason I ask is that I have the Map Clamp set to 15.37PSI to my ECU but I still get a bit of sputter in 4th at High RPM's. I'm wondering if I turn down the Map Clamp to say 14PSI to my ECU if I will get the sputter still. I might have to try this today.

 

[Jays07MS3]

you know, I can understand what dada is saying, but it appears the signal being sent to the factory boost control solenoid is not being altered even though the map clamp is in place. If what he said "was" true, with it being proportional, people having fuel cut issues with similar mods as loosh that installed the ATP BCD (and NO boost controller) would experience reduced boost as well (since it creates an air leak and false reading to the map), and we know that is not true. Loosh has always been a straight shooter around here, and have no reason to doubt him. Plus he is not the only one to install a map clamp, BCD, etc w/out a boost controller. Everyone who installed an ATP BCD early on (before voltage clamps became popular) to rid themselves of boost cut would have complained their boost was gone after installation. They haven't, and never did. I dont claim to have the answer, but I know the proportional theory is not it.

Boost wouldn't go down it would go up. The ECU sees less boost than it is commanding the WG solenoid to produce, so the ECU tells the solenoid to open even more which should create more boost. And it isn't a proportional theory, it IS how the ECU controls the WG solenoid. Its a PID (Proportional, Integral, Derivative) control loop. The ECU uses this exact type of control for many things in the car including boost control, AFR control (closed loop mode), and Speed (cruise) control. Its an industry standard type of controller thats been around for +50 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_controller

The fact that his boost isn't changing just means that there is something else in the system that is limiting boost to 19psi or the ECU isn't really sending the WG solenoid 100% duty cycle. Whatever it is, it proves that we really don't know what is going on and how the factory boost control really works. I trust laloosh's data fully. But it just raises more questions than it answers.

And Mid_Life_Crisis is correct about Drivers data. Since he has a boost controller hooked up, its a whole different ball game from laloosh.

 

[dadasracecar]

52% > 40% Charts coming soon.

I'm claiming 100% rate because under my watch and installation, I have not seen one kit seize, whether its a VAG car or a Mazda. It is going to stay that way cause I'm testing so much. I had no overhead on PG's pump installation, and I've talked with Ken and Zack about my speculations through observation of other pumps.

Cost is going up because I'm going to guarantee and test every single pump against seizures on my personal car before it is mailed out (was never previously done). That is neither here nor there though. The fact is a great product is about to hit the market, and we're buying a rather large stock of parts.

There is video documentation that going to go up and you'll have no doubt. The time it takes to do all of the testing in front of my eyes, and my eyes only (for I'm the only person I trust when it comes to this stuff) costs money. Time to assemble, time to throw on my personal vehicle, time to drive, gasoline, video, time to upload video, charts, etc, time time time time time.

How are you going ensure that there is no fuel leak-down when the pump is operating on your car? How are you going to verify the operation of the pump throughout its entire operating range? How are you going to verify the clearances when you don't have the measured efficiency data. How can you ensure reproducibility in flow rate from pump to pump? They do vary somewhat.

There's a reason why APR bought a $100,000 testing rig, and aren't just running the pump on a car for ten minutes. I would think that for an investment that big there was some reason behind it...

 

[bova80]

i am not a fan boy of either pumps but people are going with the PG because its available, somewhat i guess, if you are lucky. CP-E hasn't even begun selling theirs yet. Just because you bought their product and all of a sudden had no luck with your car you don't have to deminish all their other products. People complain there is no market for parts for any of these cars, yes i know there is more for the speed3 than speed6 but still, don't ****** complain or redicule another companies product before it even hits the market.

i have spoke to Ken at PG and Jordan at CP-E and they are both great people, will do anything to help you out.

 

[oskinosmee]

thanks tim. ill let you know when I get pump cores in, as well as the upgrade kits. Really, all of this question and doubt about AT products will diminish in 3 weeks time (if parts get here as they're expected to).

let me know too i need one bad.
Thanks

 

[AutoXRacer]

I have spoke to Ken at PG and Josh at CP-E and they are both great people, will do anything to help you out.

(iagree)