FMIC and airbox installed at BEGi
- Thread starter 1967abarth
- Start date
1967abarth
Member
Dynoing near Corky's shop. That way all dynos from stock to now have been done on the same equipment.maczter said:
justa4banger
Member
- :
- 2007 SILVER MS3
^^^ Shouldn't go boom if the a/f is right.
Now about the hood and airducting. If you honestly think that someone at mazda (engineer) didn't put alot of thought into the design of this your crazy.
Has anyone here ever owned a car with a FMIC and did a burnout at the track. Guess what the IC gets heat soaked. Maybe not as bad as the TMIC, but its still heat soaked. the FMIC isn't getting airflow at a stand still and your still pumping hot air through the IC. i know on my SVO the FMIC is QUITE warm after a burnout, yet at the end of a 1/8th mile is ambient temp.
The only way to Effectively illiminate Heat soak is with a AWIC. Whether its a FMIC or a TMIC the only way to make more consistant power is to increase the cores efficency PERIOD. all this talk about hood scoops and what not is just talk.
I can find the proof some where about some testing that was done on my SVO hood design. long story short the scoop is ineffective above 50mph (the scoop looks like that one in the photo of the white hood) from 20-50 mph the scoop has a ram air effect, anything above 55mph the scoop actually SUCKS air out from the engine bay through the scoop. Problem with my SVO is the IC sits right on top of the Turbo, so now its getting Extremely hot air from the turbo passing through the IC and out the hood.
A CO2/nitrous/water sprayer on the core would work well. water is a problem though because most tracks frown on a car leaking water on the track. CO2 and nitrous would be cool but require refills.
IMO unless you go with a better designed Core for the TMIC, a FMIC is not going to gain much. If anything (unless designed Properly) you might loose power do to a higher pressure drop across the IC.
Pressure drop is also VERY important as i have tested 2 Cores on my SVO both with same outside dimensions. Difference was one had endtanks on the ends (like most ebay IC's) and my new one is like a procharger style with end tanks on the top and bottom.
what did i gain? well lets see old numbers were 322whp and 346 wtrq at 26psi boost and 30* total timing. new setup (no other changes) gave me 324whp and 380wtrq on 24 psi and 27* total timing.
Pressure drop MAKES A DIFFERENCE. Suggested reading material would be cork bells turbo book. It will enlighten you on how things REALLY work.
Now about the hood and airducting. If you honestly think that someone at mazda (engineer) didn't put alot of thought into the design of this your crazy.
Has anyone here ever owned a car with a FMIC and did a burnout at the track. Guess what the IC gets heat soaked. Maybe not as bad as the TMIC, but its still heat soaked. the FMIC isn't getting airflow at a stand still and your still pumping hot air through the IC. i know on my SVO the FMIC is QUITE warm after a burnout, yet at the end of a 1/8th mile is ambient temp.
The only way to Effectively illiminate Heat soak is with a AWIC. Whether its a FMIC or a TMIC the only way to make more consistant power is to increase the cores efficency PERIOD. all this talk about hood scoops and what not is just talk.
I can find the proof some where about some testing that was done on my SVO hood design. long story short the scoop is ineffective above 50mph (the scoop looks like that one in the photo of the white hood) from 20-50 mph the scoop has a ram air effect, anything above 55mph the scoop actually SUCKS air out from the engine bay through the scoop. Problem with my SVO is the IC sits right on top of the Turbo, so now its getting Extremely hot air from the turbo passing through the IC and out the hood.
A CO2/nitrous/water sprayer on the core would work well. water is a problem though because most tracks frown on a car leaking water on the track. CO2 and nitrous would be cool but require refills.
IMO unless you go with a better designed Core for the TMIC, a FMIC is not going to gain much. If anything (unless designed Properly) you might loose power do to a higher pressure drop across the IC.
Pressure drop is also VERY important as i have tested 2 Cores on my SVO both with same outside dimensions. Difference was one had endtanks on the ends (like most ebay IC's) and my new one is like a procharger style with end tanks on the top and bottom.
what did i gain? well lets see old numbers were 322whp and 346 wtrq at 26psi boost and 30* total timing. new setup (no other changes) gave me 324whp and 380wtrq on 24 psi and 27* total timing.
Pressure drop MAKES A DIFFERENCE. Suggested reading material would be cork bells turbo book. It will enlighten you on how things REALLY work.
justa4banger
Member
- :
- 2007 SILVER MS3
Oh last thing designs of IC isn't that important with lower boosted apps, 5-10psi. the pressure isn't enough to make a difference but with HIGHER boosted apps its make s a difference expotentially. Since our cars already run 16 psi and most are going to 18psi, the difference in core effeciency is VERY important. Raise that boost number some more and well IC Cores have to be able to FLOW air.
none of the FMIC i have seen tested really impress me. if anything theres no gain your just able to SUSTAIN the power you should be making anyways.
300whp from a 2.3 shouldn't be difficult, hell my SVO is a 2.3 with only 8 valves and i make over 300whp.
Now my question to everyone in the quest for more power.......... HOW do you plan on sticking the power to the ground?? Check my sig.
none of the FMIC i have seen tested really impress me. if anything theres no gain your just able to SUSTAIN the power you should be making anyways.
300whp from a 2.3 shouldn't be difficult, hell my SVO is a 2.3 with only 8 valves and i make over 300whp.
Now my question to everyone in the quest for more power.......... HOW do you plan on sticking the power to the ground?? Check my sig.
knowledge007
Banned
By upgrading our LSD. As of right now I have to much tq steer and would love to get the upgraded tmic and brembo brake kit. But would love to make sure all whp hits the pavement...
justa4banger
Member
- :
- 2007 SILVER MS3
mm last i checked the MS3 has a LSD................ did you opt for one without it?
Trq steer comes from the fact you have so much power through a FWD car, wanna fix that well then i recommend running a live axle up front. Who needs steering anyways...............
(poke)
Trq steer comes from the fact you have so much power through a FWD car, wanna fix that well then i recommend running a live axle up front. Who needs steering anyways...............
(poke)knowledge007
Banned
lmao...well I am pretty new the modding world of turbo engines. I figure I need to upgrade my lsd to make sure I get all my 100% of my whp to the ground at all times.
What exactly is a live axle up front???
What exactly is a live axle up front???
justa4banger
Member
- :
- 2007 SILVER MS3
knowledge007 said:
LMAO Live/solid axle would be like installing the rearend out of a mustang into the front of your car. No steering means no trq steer. it was a joke. LMAO.
Even my VW which was awesome being FWD had no noticable Trq steer till i drove one with 300FWHP. Hell that car would change lanes when you changed gears. it was hell to drive.
NOw i won't say the LSD in our cars is the GREATEST, but it does have one, so unless your breaking diffs all the time, ugrading is a waste of money, for now......
knowledge007
Banned
so then what your saying is the crazy ass, changing lanes when switching gears tq steer is a good thing...(rockon)
justa4banger
Member
- :
- 2007 SILVER MS3
Nope just comes with the territory.............
aliennation95gt said:
Good on you for calling them. Thats the best way to get to the source. Not bashing on you, but until they post what they used to reach those numbers with a dyno slip, I call BS on just a FMIC installed.
The 1/18/07 link on the Corksport Website will not open for details etc. Although I have nothing against Corksport and I actually really like there cat-back exhaust, 40HP & 70ft/lbs of torque from an intercooler alone for the MS3 is BS! You can see 25HP & 30ft/lbs of torque on just the Mazdaspeed CAI, so I can gurantee it's with several components. Why do I call BS? COBB Tuning has there FMIC in and testing it out. It looks to be the exact same size and style and they claim NO increased dyno'd performance from the TMIC to the FMIC. Also, they await the tuning for the Access Port. The best thing we can do to the MS3 that is dyno proven to this point, is install a better TMIC. (drinks)
*One added Note* The comprimise in performance parts from TMIC to FMIC is you must rid of your CAI. The piping runs where the CAI filter is at, that's why you need a short ram style intake.
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1967abarth
Member
The FMIC, in my car, was built and designed by Corky Bell.justa4banger said:
justa4banger said:
I see where you're coming from, but drag racing the car and doing a burnout before hand, and autox, and track days, would be totally different. If you were out lapping a course, the heatsoak to the TMIC would be higher than the FMIC just due to its location
justa4banger said:
erm.
not so sure about the rest of us, but i want my intercooler to cool the pressurized air as much as possible with as little pressure loss as possible while my car is actually MOVING. i couldn't care less about what happens if i enter a burnout contest in a brand new car (besides being hauled off to the loony farm). (nana)
like i said before, i trust that, unless the OP told Corky "logic be damned! i want an FMIC and not a TMIC!", then i trust Corky Bell's decades of experience in designing stuff like this over anyone else i know to come up with a system that is a genuine improvement and not a downgrade over the stock system.
based on personal experience, i trust that Corky took measurements of the air temps both before and after the IC as well as boost readings before and after the IC and will be willing to share that data with the OP to pass along if he chooses to do so, so that we can see in hard data what the differences between the stock TMIC and the BEGI FMIC are while the car is in motion and not just dyno numbers from a stationary car with a fan blowing on it.
justa4banger said:
huh? Honestly it would be an even greater difference on lower boost apps because if your only pushing out 7psi and lose 2 due to bad piping size or to large of an intercooler then you notice that a lot more then if you lose 2psi in a engine getting 16+psi. What fmic have you even seen tested for the ms3? Just becuase we're pushing 16psi dosent mean we need max efficiency, if you get a standard bar and plate intercooler theres not going to be a huge difference between one and the other, as long as their not junk with welds blocking the end tanks or whatever else that can be thought of, our turbos are small, it all matters what size piping we use to run it. If we put some giant super efficient IC on our car it would run like crap because the turbo wouldnt be able to push enough air to fill it. Also, on all the "upgraded" intercooler kits, their not making power, their substaining power we should be making anyways "making maximum efficiency from our cars motor and turbo, fuel system, ignition , etc...", like all bolt ons.
Why is it since our cars came with a TMIC everyone thinks thats the way to go, its cheaper for mazda to produce and assemble, how hard is that to figure out? And a lil FYI you can peice together a custom FMIC for less than any of the upgraded tmic availible for our car. (rockon)
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Yes. The TMIC was chosen so that Mazda could easily drop this engine into any car, which they have done to great effect (and Ford should be, too, but they're too dumb to bother, I guess). I don't think there's much arguing that a TMIC is better for performance and power output. It was a (good) business decision on Mazda's part to use a TMIC.
1967abarth
Member
Price and ordering information for BEGi FMIC available on their site.
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_MazdaSpeed3_parts.html
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_MazdaSpeed3_parts.html
1967abarth said:
I couldnt find any specs on anything, what size piping is used and what size core is it? Im curious how far me and my buddy are off......if at all
Also did they use steel for the pipiing? It looks like it, if so Im curious why, its easier to weld I guess, any other reason?
moleodonuts
Member
- :
- 07 Mazdaspeed3 GT
voiceKoi said:
Not that I would know for sure, but I'm assuming since those shots are from the prototype, that they used steel to save on cost.
