FINALLY went to the dyno after all these years!

[Little Beavis]

Well, Friday I put the MP3 up on the dyno (see my sig for all the mods).
We did a number of pulls but I took a print out of the 8 psi run and then the last two 12 psi runs (9 runs in total). I could not run any more boost because the stock injectors simply couldn't provide any more fuel and were starting to lean things out even at 12 psi (so my torque was dropping off quicker than it should have).

Anyway 8 psi and 223 hp / 221 ft*lbs and 12 psi with 264 hp and 264 ft*lbs is good enough - especially when you consider the pathetic numbers the stock MSP setup generated (before all the mods).

Here are the plots:
8 psi

12 psi - note the little down "blip" is when I hit the boost limit on my boost controller (it tried to spike to 13 psi I guess).

 

[joka1]

not bad. maybe one day i will go to the dyno. now get some bigger injectors and try again!!

rob

 

[flat_black]

Ahhh, that 8 psi curve I like... The 12, not so much. Too non-linear. I bet it's plenty fast, and probably even more fun at 8, anyway. =) Good stuff!

 

[Little Beavis]

Ahhh, that 8 psi curve I like... The 12, not so much. Too non-linear. I bet it's plenty fast, and probably even more fun at 8, anyway. =) Good stuff!

Yeah, the 8 psi was beautiful, but at 12 psi, the injectors were maxed out big time. . .my a/f just kept rising. . .it was at 11:1 at 5000 and went straight up to 13:1 at the end (a little lean, but the J&S was there to keep things under control). If I had more injector, I'm sure the curve would have looked more like the 8 psi curve. . .

 

[flat_black]

I dunno, 13:1 seems safely lean... If that's as lean as you got, that's not bad, really. Even with a turbo, I'm on the side of erring toward the side of slightly leaner... Too many turbo cars that foul plugs, burn out exhausts, and just generally consume too much gas out there. =) But I digress... Shoot for 12-12.5:1, I would say, across the board, if it runs safely!

Also, you have 'P&P Head' in your sig; Did you, by chance, get your combustion chambers polished? That made a HUGE difference for me in fending off detonation. I now easily run around 13.5:1 A/F at 11.2:1 CR, without even a hint of detonation, after mine were reshaped and polished. Just something to think about, if you haven't yet. =)

 

[Little Beavis]

I dunno, 13:1 seems safely lean... If that's as lean as you got, that's not bad, really. Even with a turbo, I'm on the side of erring toward the side of slightly leaner... Too many turbo cars that foul plugs, burn out exhausts, and just generally consume too much gas out there. =) But I digress... Shoot for 12-12.5:1, I would say, across the board, if it runs safely!

Also, you have 'P&P Head' in your sig; Did you, by chance, get your combustion chambers polished? That made a HUGE difference for me in fending off detonation. I now easily run around 13.5:1 A/F at 11.2:1 CR, without even a hint of detonation, after mine were reshaped and polished. Just something to think about, if you haven't yet. =)

Yeah, I understand that 13:1 is about the point of max power. It is also possible that things were just getting too hot (these being the last dyno runs #8 and #9 with no cool down in between). Who knows. . .I'll have to figure out what to do about getting more fuel and try again some time (though I'm not too worried about it because someone will always have more hp than me, because I'm not going to play that game). As for the head, I don't really know if they were polished or not (seems stupid, but I didn't check - mainly because it came assembled). The in and out were definitely polished and it had a valve job done as well, but who knows. Good question though <puzzled look on face>.

 

[Kooldino]

Ahhh, that 8 psi curve I like... The 12, not so much.

??

The 12psi curve looks fantastic. Plenty of low end power. Sure, it dies off a tad up high, but no biggie.

Too non-linear. I bet it's plenty fast, and probably even more fun at 8, anyway. =)

If 220whp was more fun than 260whp, I would have stopped moding my car a LONG time ago.

Jeremy - great numbers. Are these SAE?

 

[Kooldino]

Also, you have 'P&P Head' in your sig; Did you, by chance, get your combustion chambers polished? That made a HUGE difference for me in fending off detonation. I now easily run around 13.5:1 A/F at 11.2:1 CR, without even a hint of detonation, after mine were reshaped and polished.

Do you have pics of your polished combustion chambers?

How exactly were they polished?

 

[nvmsp]

Nice numbers.

 

[Blue_Speed]

not bad at all.

what injectors are you running? i think i might also consider sending my turbo to mpnick cause i'm stuck at 240whp_270ftlb. i know it's around somewhere in this forum but how much does he usually charge to change out the internals of the turbo?

 

[Hughes412]

Ahhh, that 8 psi curve I like... The 12, not so much. Too non-linear. I bet it's plenty fast, and probably even more fun at 8, anyway. =) Good stuff!

I was gona say the same thing.

 

[BOOSTR]

I'd be happy with those numbers! Nice improvement over the stock set up.

 

[flat_black]

The quenches were welded up, into a cloverleaf patern, and then polished... I don't have a picture of MY polished combustion chambers, but I have a picture of one I started on a while ago:

http://flatblack.somethingsomething.org/p5/images/engine/head_2_chamber.jpg

The last chamber on the right has begun the process of polishing. That was after the 100 grit cross buff pads, I think.

I sent off my head to be done by DPR, and they did the welding, then I did the polishing. Basically, the surfaces were sanded smooth using a lap sanding bit, then cross buff pads were used (100 grit, then 300 grit), followed by what is essentially what I call a 'Dremel Q-Tip', which is a rounded-end polishing mendrel. I used that with coarse grit polishing compound, then fine grit to finish it all off. Very time-expensive, but worthwhile for what it does.

If you want, I can show you HOW my head was done, but not pictures thereof. Reason being is I had to get the head on the car, and I didn't have a camera at the time. =( I've got a spare head off the car, still, and have polished/ported that one up, too, but it doesn't have welded quenches, yet. The other one will be coming off come October, though, and the new one will be dropped in place, since this one I'm using lightened valves, different cams, lighter material for the shims, and better valve seals. I'll take a snap of this head after the quenches are welded, though, since I have my fancy-pants new camera to play with, now.

Here's a pic of the same idea, applied to a Nissan head by DPR:

http://www.dprracing.com/images/services/compact/nissan/nis1.jpg

Do you have pics of your polished combustion chambers?

How exactly were they polished?

 

[flat_black]

It's the two-stage-bump that I don't like. The single, linear curve looks better, to me.

And with regards to more power meaning more fun, I don't find them to be relative. =) I've driven many a Corvette and monster-powerful car, and I find I enjoy driving a lower powered car to it's limits more. Then again, I despise underpowered cars, too. Hehee. It's a fine line. I think 220whp is about where I'd stop having fun with the car, and be more concerned about destroying something, or having to work extremely hard to keep traction off the line. *shrugs* Just a matter of preference, really.

The 12psi curve looks fantastic. Plenty of low end power. Sure, it dies off a tad up high, but no biggie.

If 220whp was more fun than 260whp, I would have stopped moding my car a LONG time ago.

 

[Little Beavis]

Dana, those numbers were SAE - figured that was the standard.

And to the comment, I do keep the car at the 8psi setting normally, above that, the wheels will spin way too much even if you let them hook up and roll into the throttle they'll break loose in second. Having driven Turfburns, he can do the same thing in third, but his turbo is kicks in harder (but has more lag). Anyway, the power was good, but more is nice.

Also to Blue_Speed these are the stock 280cc injectors - they can't give any more gas than they were giving here (unless I put on a new FPR or something of that nature). It is unfortunate that I have a second set of injectors in the IM that I can't use at the moment, but we're not done yet!

But the car runs SO good these days. . .but I think it is time to sell it as the family is expanding and I need a bigger more respectable car for work. Damn!

 

[Kooldino]

The quenches were welded up, into a cloverleaf patern, and then polished... I don't have a picture of MY polished combustion chambers, but I have a picture of one I started on a while ago:

http://flatblack.somethingsomething.org/p5/images/engine/head_2_chamber.jpg

The last chamber on the right has begun the process of polishing. That was after the 100 grit cross buff pads, I think.

Looks good! So it looks like you can keep the valve guides in and do the job. Do you think there's any chance I could leave the valves themselves in the head and get a decent polish out of it? I'd be worried to mess up the valve seats if I took them out.

I sent off my head to be done by DPR, and they did the welding, then I did the polishing. Basically, the surfaces were sanded smooth using a lap sanding bit, then cross buff pads were used (100 grit, then 300 grit), followed by what is essentially what I call a 'Dremel Q-Tip', which is a rounded-end polishing mendrel. I used that with coarse grit polishing compound, then fine grit to finish it all off. Very time-expensive, but worthwhile for what it does.

About how many hours do you have into the job?

Could you post a link or a pic to these cross buff pads?

If you want, I can show you HOW my head was done, but not pictures thereof. Reason being is I had to get the head on the car, and I didn't have a camera at the time. =( I've got a spare head off the car, still, and have polished/ported that one up, too, but it doesn't have welded quenches, yet. The other one will be coming off come October, though, and the new one will be dropped in place, since this one I'm using lightened valves, different cams, lighter material for the shims, and better valve seals. I'll take a snap of this head after the quenches are welded, though, since I have my fancy-pants new camera to play with, now.

Awesome. How much power does your car make? What gains do you expect w/ the new head?

Here's a pic of the same idea, applied to a Nissan head by DPR:

http://www.dprracing.com/images/services/compact/nissan/nis1.jpg

So those combustion chambers started off round, i take it? Then they welded them and recut them?

 

[Kooldino]

It's the two-stage-bump that I don't like. The single, linear curve looks better, to me.

Sure, the curve is a little cleaner, but I'll take the added power of the 12psi dyno any day!

And with regards to more power meaning more fun, I don't find them to be relative. =) I've driven many a Corvette and monster-powerful car, and I find I enjoy driving a lower powered car to it's limits more. Then again, I despise underpowered cars, too. Hehee. It's a fine line. I think 220whp is about where I'd stop having fun with the car, and be more concerned about destroying something, or having to work extremely hard to keep traction off the line. *shrugs* Just a matter of preference, really.

Comparing a high powered vette to a Protege is apples and oranges. Comparing a 220whp Protege to a 260whp Protege is not. I can tell you without any hesitation that 260whp feels much better. If we ever meet and I have my car, I'll be sure to show you why. (shocked)

 

[Kooldino]

Dana, those numbers were SAE - figured that was the standard.

Cool, that works.

And to the comment, I do keep the car at the 8psi setting normally,

Booo!

above that, the wheels will spin way too much even if you let them hook up and roll into the throttle they'll break loose in second. Having driven Turfburns, he can do the same thing in third, but his turbo is kicks in harder (but has more lag). Anyway, the power was good, but more is nice.

Advice: Front and rear AWR motor mounts. Eagle F1-GSD3 tires. You already have the Quaife. The above 3 mods do wonders for traction. If you still break them free to often, get yourself a laggier turbo.

Also to Blue_Speed these are the stock 280cc injectors - they can't give any more gas than they were giving here (unless I put on a new FPR or something of that nature). It is unfortunate that I have a second set of injectors in the IM that I can't use at the moment, but we're not done yet!

Why can't you use them?

Can you post pics of your IM?

But the car runs SO good these days. . .but I think it is time to sell it as the family is expanding and I need a bigger more respectable car for work. Damn!

NO!!!! You've come too far to sell it!

 

[flat_black]

Yep, the valve guides stay in for any port work I do. Sometimes, I'll punch 'em out and replace them afterward, but not on this head. I'm not concerned about it. I Actually have tapered some, but I don't know how much of a difference it made.

If you have spare valves, you could leave the valves in, for sure! In fact, I recommend it. =) Makes it a lot easier! Myself, I was just careful, and used low rpm for the most part. Covered them at one point with blue masking tape, just to be sure, when I was polishing the chambers.

The new head? I have, what? Maybe ten hours into it? That's taking my time. My old head, I fully blueprinted, cc'ed before, then again after the quenches were welded up. The new head is already on the car, so gains are had, not expected. =) Whoo!

Overall gains from this work? Hard to say, because it got put on in conjunction with my ITB's. Overall, I make plenty of NA power. I have a hard time keeping the tires stuck to the ground through the first three gears, from time to time, as it stands. I have no recent dyno results, as it stands, but before I started all this, with the previous light-port-jobbed head, crappy cam grind, untimed, un-standaloned setup, I made 122 SAE at the wheels.

Now? Well, it's a lot faster! I'm going to the dyno soon to get my A/F, and tune around that, as well as make a final decision on cams and get some new cam gears. Once I get all that tuned, I have no idea what I'll be making for power. I can tell you I'm sitting around 11.2:1 CR, as of my last estimate, and VE is pretty insane, at certain RPM especially.

Oh, and lastly, yes, they welded 'em up and recut them. And this is what the cross-buff pads look like:

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/portdiy/portdy27.jpg

For the 1/4 inch shank ones, and:

http://www.toolbarn.com/images/dremel/511.jpg

For the smaller 1/8 inch shank ones, in dremel size.

Hope this helps!

Looks good! So it looks like you can keep the valve guides in and do the job. Do you think there's any chance I could leave the valves themselves in the head and get a decent polish out of it? I'd be worried to mess up the valve seats if I took them out.

About how many hours do you have into the job?

Could you post a link or a pic to these cross buff pads?

Awesome. How much power does your car make? What gains do you expect w/ the new head?

So those combustion chambers started off round, i take it? Then they welded them and recut them?

 

[Kooldino]

Yep, the valve guides stay in for any port work I do. Sometimes, I'll punch 'em out and replace them afterward, but not on this head. I'm not concerned about it.

They are a pain in the balls to punch out.

I Actually have tapered some, but I don't know how much of a difference it made.

Tapered some valve guides? Why?

If you have spare valves, you could leave the valves in, for sure! In fact, I recommend it. =)

Why would I need spare valves to keep them in there? Will I mess up the ones I leave in there?

Overall gains from this work? Hard to say, because it got put on in conjunction with my ITB's. Overall, I make plenty of NA power. I have a hard time keeping the tires stuck to the ground through the first three gears, from time to time, as it stands. I have no recent dyno results, as it stands, but before I started all this, with the previous light-port-jobbed head, crappy cam grind, untimed, un-standaloned setup, I made 122 SAE at the wheels.

Man, that's a lot of work for ~15whp. You should dyno again on your current setup to see where you're at!

Now? Well, it's a lot faster! I'm going to the dyno soon to get my A/F, and tune around that, as well as make a final decision on cams and get some new cam gears. Once I get all that tuned, I have no idea what I'll be making for power. I can tell you I'm sitting around 11.2:1 CR, as of my last estimate, and VE is pretty insane, at certain RPM especially.

What max VE are you guestimating? At what RPM?

Oh, and lastly, yes, they welded 'em up and recut them. And this is what the cross-buff pads look like:

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/portdiy/portdy27.jpg

For the 1/4 inch shank ones, and:

http://www.toolbarn.com/images/dremel/511.jpg

For the smaller 1/8 inch shank ones, in dremel size.

Hope this helps!

Sure does, thanks.