Differing HP claims AP

[LionofZion]

I am just about convinced into saving more dough and going AP over HT but I am seeing varying numbers on the claims. Here is one :
http://www.mazdaspeedstore.com/mazd...e-Management-Mazdaspeed3-2007-2010-p-319.html
I cant remember where, but I thought stage 1 would be more than that. For someone like me, who may be wanting to ride that warranty wagon a bit longer, the HT looks to have better bang for buck. What are the numbers of the stage 1+? Could I safely run that with CAI and CBE? I know I'll need a full TBE for a stage 2.

 

[ReNaToMS3]

The AP enables you to make your own tune, for your specific car. The HT is just a flash solution with pre-made tune that MIGHT work for your car. The HT is basically just an OTS map.

With the AP, you get ATR for free which lets you tune the car any way you want to, starting from a OTS map. I just went to a dyno meet with my STOCK car. On the stock tune/stock car, i made 215whp/235tq. With just a custom tune and VERY safe AFR's, i made 236whp/268tq. That's gain on the tune alone, which speak by itself. Oh yea, that was just on 15psi of boost.

You can run the Stage1+CAI with your mods, i would just learn to read the datalog numbers to make sure everything is okay after like 50 miles on the map.

 

[the_caruch]

AP > HT

Pretty much what RenatoMS3 said

 

[oaklandopen]

Ht is like the all-in-one tv dinner....throw it in the microwave and your good

Ap is like you having to make a meal from scratch. Takes more work, but if done right you can make it taste a whole lot better in the end. But at the same time, you could **** it up along the way if you don't know what you're doing

I went ht route....but all I have is the mscai. But if I had the money to play around, id go all out with internals and bolt-ons, and hand it over to a protune shop with the ap

 

[hugador]

Consider Stage 1 OTS maps as safe tunes. Power gains is notable yet you won't get the most out of what your car can do unless you custom tune with ATR if you dare lol or get a tune from a shop with AccessTuner.

 

[LionofZion]

I know AP is far more flexible, but as stated, to really get out of it what is intended, and be safe, it needs to be pro-tuned with your device. At that point, youre lookin at stage 2 to make it worthwhile...which also means full TBE...$+$+$ and now we're at over a grand, easy plus the cost of a pro-tune. Most of my reading has led me to believe the culprit of many of these zoom zoom booms is due to taxing the stock turbo unit, even with a tune. At the cost of the AP and mods, a replacement turbo is in cost range with similar hp, and more hp potential, and potentially safer, IMHO

 

[oaklandopen]

Yea...I think ppl should stop worrying about the engine, and be more concerned with the stock k04 ability, to include its wastegate which is a major cause of overboosting

I think everhthing else in this motor is substantial except the boosting piece

 

[sick_role]

Rods, Fuel Pump, wastegate.

 

[the_caruch]

Most of my reading has led me to believe the culprit of many of these zoom zoom booms is due to taxing the stock turbo unit, even with a tune.

Then you're reading the wrong things.

People were blowing their engines mostly because of bad tunes, knock, and/or not replacing their fuel pump when it was dropping pressure.

If you have anything more than an intake the HT is not for you.

 

[MSMS3]

Then you're reading the wrong things.

People were blowing their engines mostly because of bad tunes, knock, and/or not replacing their fuel pump when it was dropping pressure.

If you have anything more than an intake the HT is not for you.

Agree about the bad tunes causing the zoom, zoom, boom. The K04 and its wastegate flow rate are pretty well matched and pretty well matched to the car. Most people want snappy throttle response and power that comes on at relatively reasonable rpm. A bigger turbo will make more power, will have a greater flow through, including wastegate discharge, but at the expense of lots of turbo lag and poor throttle response and anemic power delivery in ordinary stop and go driving. I've been down that road with big Garrett T-4 variant upgrades on other platforms. Power comes on very late, comes on like a light switch, and there is no power down low. I was having trouble keeping up with econo cars until 4,000 rpm. That's not for me.

The K04 delivers great power from 3k to 6k rpm on a good tune but still turns into a cherry hot furnace when pushed over 6,000 rpm at sustained boost levels above 18 psi. It is efficient at up to 20 psi, maybe a little more at lower boost levels, but tunes should try to keep boost max in the 19-20 psi range when coming up on boost with a gradual taper to 16 at 6,000, and should try to keep AFR's on the rich to very rich side under load, especially in the higher gears. This is a direct injection engine and it needs the rich fuel for cylinder cooling. Let's not forget that in our quest to gain a couple extra horses by going too lean.

What gets these engines in trouble is the AFR going lean. This happens when fuel cannot keep up with the air the engine is receiving. That can happen for many reasons, most of which have to do with stupid tuning decisions or the fuel pump taking a dump. Maxing out the wastegate happens because someone is trying to force more air through the engine than can be safely discharged as exhaust. When that happens, the excess can only go one other place: it keeps spinning the exhaust impeller side of the turbo faster and faster, thereby increasing the pressure on the compressor side. Two scenarios are then likely. The boosted air becomes super heated due to the friction. This raises the temperature in the turbo housing well above its 1600 degree F. limits, the center shaft softens and the turbo fails, sometimes dramatically with broken compressor vanes being sucked into the intake. The other scenario is that the overboost raises the AFR to unsafe levels because the fuel pump can't keep up and the lean condition causes extreme combustion chamber and pistion damage.

But, I DISAGREE that HT is not for anyone with mods above intake. HT raises boost levels to the 18-19 psi range. Combined with a good catless dp/rp (as in my sig below) this also raises that limit a little bit more. The better flowing exhaust benefits from another mapping change - a sensibly raised load limit that will allow the engine to produce more power under load before the load/boost/fuel cut safety features step in. It also has spot-on MAF callibration corrections for each of the more popular specific aftermarket intakes. This is not only beneficial in optimizing the intake, but it optimizes ECU function for all other mods, including on the exhaust side.

One of the very issues that causes zoom, zoom, boom is large boost spikes that can happen when running 3 inch dp/rp catless exhausts on stock tune. I was worried about the long term effects of that. When I went with the HT tune, I found that the spikes disappeared and I have a nice smooth 18-19 psi solid, reliable boost under load with a gradual taper to 16 at 6,000 rpm.

Not trying to say anything negative about either AP or Standback. Both offer a lot of features that HT does not. But they offer them at considerably greater risk of zoom, zoom, boom.

And it is a gross simplification and overstatement to claim that HT is not for me at my mod level. I know better.

 

[COBB Tuning]

Thanks for all of your responses guys, however, we will take issue with the notion that the AccessPORT is not a complete tuning platform even when using the OTS maps. I cannot speak to what the other manufacturers offer, however, the Off the shelf maps are a great way to tune your car and will not require additional tuning, depending on your modifications. I think where many people say that you need extra tuning for our maps is that many users tend to have parts that fall outside of what our maps call for.

As far as power gains go, we have split our maps up for cars with fuel pumps and without fuel pumps for the 2010 models. So stage1 on a 2010 is going to be less than that of a Gen1 car. Same for stage2 especially if that Gen2 is rocking a stock pump. What cars are you comparing where you are seeing differing power figures?

 

[LionofZion]

I was looking at the gen 1 cars, such as mine. And I was comparing the stage 1 map to a ht in terms of power and equally, reliability. Not counting the 68hp claim by ht that refers to the power diff once one hits the 6k mark, I would have to say there looks to be a realistic gain in the neighborhood of 8%. For people who do want a safe, but noticeable tune, it would be somewhat of a contest between the ht and an ap stage 1, right? What u saw for the stage 1 was a 3.5% increase in hp. Whats the stage 1+ consist of and require? How much more power is it, and is it both extremely safe and compatiblr with just mazdaspeed bolt ons, like cai and cbe?

 

[oaklandopen]

The thing with ht is that the tune does not change any of the original safety features that the ecu already has, such as kncok retard, or cold boost cut, etc. You can read up on all the info in the ht subforum

In particular, they paid attention to exhaust gases, and go on to explain how they decided to reduce additional hp by like 5 or 10 because the exhaust gasses were like 100 more than they wanted. Good tuning decisions id say

The whole idea of a "safe" mod is arguable. I've been trolling this forum since early 08, and the whole zoomzoom boom was popping up when the ap was a part of that users mod list. Not to say it was the cobb alone, but since ht has been out I've only seen 1 thread of a boomed engine so far where the ht was implimented in the mod list. Only thing is when I checked out the users other posts before they bought the ht they were complaining of knock, loss of throttle or accelleration in some gears, sudden spikes of boost, etc. So who knows what damage the engine was going through before the ht was implimented

I know when I first got mine and wanted to mod the first instilled fear thanks to forums was changing downpipes...so I didn't. The next was map clamps or boost cut defenders...those were no good either. Then tuning came about, and ppl were starting threads with "another zoom zoom boom"

When ht came about ppl were praising and praising, and I read stuff for myself, and I trolled for months and months looking for a fault and couldn't, so I got it. Been zoomin just fine with a cai and ht ever since

 

[MSMS3]

^ +1. Especially regarding the tuning choice of HT to focus on exhaust gas temperature.

Not saying anything negative about AP or any other tuning solution, but HT has been a huge benefit for me and it works well with all bolt ons short of modifying the turbo or going with a bigger one.

I would say that HT did modify one of the safety features by slightly increasing the load tables so that you can run 18-19 psi under load without hitting load cut. That does bump up the power without causing any safety issues, as we have seen now from practical user experience. It is a good choice for those of us who do not want to do custom tuning.

I take Cobb at its word regarding its current generation of OTS maps for both the Gen 1 cars and Gen 2 ones. However, we all do remember well that there were a lot of problems with its early efforts with OTS maps and a lot of complaints on this board about how poorly the were running even when the user was being very, very careful to exactly match the mods the map was intended to work with. Cobb's maps were very picky about that. Maybe that is now fixed.

I do like the smoothness of the HT tune at light and partial throttle. It's even smoother than the stock ECU mapping. Obviously, I can't comment on AP in this regard. For OP, it would appear that either HT or AP with Stage 1 OTS maps would be good choices.

I don't think dyno comparisons are valid. You can dyno the same car with the same mods and tune on the same dyno on two different days and get enough variation to account for the small differences reported between the two tuning choices at this level of tune and mod. Both good choices, IMHO.

 

[LionofZion]

Yeah, the safeguards seem to be a plus for me, esp since I just got married, dont have a third car if this breaks down, or the money to blow if the tool at mazda refuse to honor warranty. In regards to your experience, oakland and msm, would you say that the HT makes as dramatic an increase as your CAI or SRI, or more? I'm thinking that this, along with a tmic (providing some more good dyno evidence) may be just the ticket to reliable and stealthy improvements.

 

[oaklandopen]

Dramatic increase? Depends on what you mean. For this car the best bang-for-your-buck mods are intakes, downpipes, and tunes (in terms of hp gained per dollar spent). My first mod was the mscai, loved it. And like every other intake I gained probably 20hp from it

The ht will increase your hp numbers, but not so much in terms of peak hp. More like the line on the graph gains area underneath, if that makes sense.

Any aftermarket tune is the best way to increase power on a force fed car or truck. And if I ever get a turbo diesel truck I can garantee you the first mod I will get is a plug-in tune/monitor. This engine is no different, but you should weigh in what you want, need, or can afford when it comes to tune

So look at what you need. Since no one really "needs" more power you'll have to define that on your own. In terms of wanting more power, you could get that with either the ap or ht. In terms of what you can afford, the ht is cheapest with less options, the ap is technically endless in tuning ability. But of course you have to afford a pro-tune if you ever want more power from additional mods and safe gains at that.

For me it came down to just getting by with another little mod, nothing big. Personally, even if I had the cash, there aresome mods id stay away from just because there have been so many "undesireable" threads

 

[LionofZion]

I know what you mean, in any regards to turbo setups. On the flip side, some of the bolt-ons are responsible for issues with the turbo leaking and/or going into a backward spin, due to lack of needed backpressure from aftermarket downpipes. I've heard of a lot of guys making even more with a DP than they did with an intake, but I'm concerned regarding that at the moment. I know some have said that HT's claims are a little off due to the type of dyno used, claiming the whp numbers for the stock ms3 where 242. Even with that in account, I would say that the increase has to be in the neighborhood of 15-20hp. The HT tune with MS CAI and CBE (done on same day, same dyno) exhaust showed an ending result of 288hp. Considering the CBE has been shown to improve marginally (0-5hp) on performance, it's realistic to say that the CAI made up a solid 20hp over stock, leaving 20+ to be made up by the CBE and HT tune. While thats not drastic as a 30hp gain from DP, race pipe, it does seem to be more reliable, and most importantly looks like it maintains those increased number far more effectively into the higher rpm's than compared to the sudden stock drop-off. I wanted to know the difference between the HT tune on stock car and the HT tune designed for the CAI and CBE, so after a few pestering emails, I got an email back with a chart. And fwiw, I called Cobb and left a message about a week ago, and still havent heard anything. HT always got back to me within 24hrs. My goal was around 280whp, whether or not that feasible, idk. I would say, however, from my reading, I would think that a good TMIC, plus HT tune with the CAI and CBE would have to be darn close. And as far as "needing" more power, of course I "need" it especially in terms of highway driving. I dont beat up my car, and dont car to do wholeshots often (I think I might have done one since buying it), but I would definitely say that my equally important goal would be traction. Getting this car to hook up with 280whp might just make it fast enough that I wouldnt want any more for a DD. I've seen some guys using rx8 wheels, which look nice, and I think are a little wider? Whats the deal with wheel/tire clearance? Can we go any wider?

 

[oaklandopen]

Turbos don't need backpressure. If anything they need to get rid of exhaust more than any other engine. The whole turbo overboosting issue would come from a combination of things, all leading to the turbine spinning so fast that either the compressor wheel overwhelms the intake, or the connecting rod gets bowed from turbo rpms being too high. There are a lot of things to consider to protect the turbo from self destructing, and ht does a good job at doing it

I would say if your goal is 280 at the wheels, you might be better off getting a cobb (amongst other bolt ons). Your attempting to go from 263bhp to around 330bhp (if using 15% drivetrain loss). And I don't think even the best numbers from an ht, dp, and intake are going to garauntee you almost 70hp. Just doesn't seem feasible to me

 

[MSMS3]

OP: I don't think you can compare mods for "dramatic" impact. Intake is a huge benefit. Yes, you can feel it. I found my catless dp/rp to be a huge bump up, particularly in midrange power. It comes on hard between 4k and 5.5K. But butt dynos can be very unreliable. Where you will see a benefit with tune at this stage of your modding is in two areas: (1) you can bypass the ECU nanny for 0-60 mph, which will give you full power in first and second gear (goods for grins and shredding tires at a minimum and a lot more "lively" driving) and (2) having more usable power above 5,500 rpm. It is transformational in the power below 60 mph and in the power retained (not necessarily gained) above 5,500 rpm to well past 6,000 rpm where the stock engine falls flat on its face.

There will be other nice power gains from tuning solutions at your stage of mods, but don't expect them to be huge or particularly noticable. In fact, one of the things about the HT tune is that it is so smooth. Smooth power delivery can be deceptive. It may not seem like it is making your quicker until you time yourself or take the car to the track. And that smoothness is also there during light and partial throttle situations.

Others may disagree with me, but a TMIC does not make power. It allows you to retain more of the available power by lowering boost air temps somewhat under certain conditions. I did not make that mod and do not feel that I am lacking a lot by skipping it. Bigger IC's can introduce boost lag if you are not careful in sizing.

Where you will notice the gains (and they will be real) will be with a stopwatch and/or accelerometer or other similar means to objectively measure the relationship between time, speed and distance. Butt dyno will let you down. Tunes or mod selection that causes power to come on abruptly, may actually be slower than careful selection of mods and tune that build power all across the rpm band rather than narrowly.

 

[boosted1]

The HT tune, makes the MS3 what it should have been from the factory.