zoomzoom02
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I was thinking about this before I turbo my car. What does it do? How is it done? Where can i get it done, and how much? Benefits/Downfalls?
Cryotreat Tranny?
- Thread starter zoomzoom02
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zoomzoom02
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so you have had no tranny problems?
After hearing so many people mention it, here is what I found.
I visited a heat treatment plant recently. (A student in Quebec, in french, please forgive some word deformation.) I saw how they do subzero treatments: They put the metal in the bottom of a boxe like fridge and pore (Nitrogen) in it until the desired temperature is obtained.
The following is taken from the machinery's handbook:'Subzero treatment consists of subjectingthe steel, after hardening and eather before or after tempering, to a subzero temperature(that usually ranges from -100 to -120 deg. F) and for a period of time varing with the size or volume of the tool, gage, or other part.'
When I visited, they told me it was primarely used to cool down a very hot metal (over 800C) fast enouph to keep it's austenique forme. (in other words to keep it melted while it is at subzero temperature). This is also called Martensite.This is done to do other tipes of heat treatments with the material at a later date.
'The objective here is to increase the the durability or life of the tools; however, up to the present time, the results of tests by metallurgists and tool engineers often differ considerably and in some instances are contradictory.' Machinery's Handbook p.514
'Subzero treatment may sometimes cause craking'p.514
'The subzero treatment has been applied to carburized machine parts. For example, the amount of retained austenite in carburized gears may be sufficient to reduce the life of the gears. In one component, the Rockwell hardness was increased from 55 C to 65 C without loss of impact resistance qualities; in fact, impact resistance may be increased in some examples.'p.516
My opinion is that there is a potential, but a increadibly powerful engine would have to be tested with it first.
As for prices, I would call somone that can get it done close by.
The temperature and time in wich the material should be decided by a metallurgist with experience and he would have to know what heat treatment has already been done on the peace with the tipe of material. This is not something i would rush into.
Has anyone tried this and if so how powerful is your car, what temp did you do it at, how fast was it cooled and reheated and for how long?
PS: Sorry for the rite up, didn't intend on making it this long.
I visited a heat treatment plant recently. (A student in Quebec, in french, please forgive some word deformation.) I saw how they do subzero treatments: They put the metal in the bottom of a boxe like fridge and pore (Nitrogen) in it until the desired temperature is obtained.
The following is taken from the machinery's handbook:'Subzero treatment consists of subjectingthe steel, after hardening and eather before or after tempering, to a subzero temperature(that usually ranges from -100 to -120 deg. F) and for a period of time varing with the size or volume of the tool, gage, or other part.'
When I visited, they told me it was primarely used to cool down a very hot metal (over 800C) fast enouph to keep it's austenique forme. (in other words to keep it melted while it is at subzero temperature). This is also called Martensite.This is done to do other tipes of heat treatments with the material at a later date.
'The objective here is to increase the the durability or life of the tools; however, up to the present time, the results of tests by metallurgists and tool engineers often differ considerably and in some instances are contradictory.' Machinery's Handbook p.514
'Subzero treatment may sometimes cause craking'p.514
'The subzero treatment has been applied to carburized machine parts. For example, the amount of retained austenite in carburized gears may be sufficient to reduce the life of the gears. In one component, the Rockwell hardness was increased from 55 C to 65 C without loss of impact resistance qualities; in fact, impact resistance may be increased in some examples.'p.516
My opinion is that there is a potential, but a increadibly powerful engine would have to be tested with it first.
As for prices, I would call somone that can get it done close by.
The temperature and time in wich the material should be decided by a metallurgist with experience and he would have to know what heat treatment has already been done on the peace with the tipe of material. This is not something i would rush into.
Has anyone tried this and if so how powerful is your car, what temp did you do it at, how fast was it cooled and reheated and for how long?
PS: Sorry for the rite up, didn't intend on making it this long.
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zoomzoom02
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no, thank you! Yeah i want to see if anyone has done this, I know that one person here in arizona is planning on doing it but i dont know who it was...
I have no trubble believing that a lot of gears in race cars get cryo-treated. This might be however one of the heat treatment steps. I am not sure but I believe that this is not a treatment in itself but a component in heat treatment for some high carbon alloys.
Plus a used gears may have contraints in it, of the tention it holdsup. It can also have sharp inword edges from wear that could create tentions in it's cooling. When a part is concieved, the machining and shape is determined by the degree of heat treatments that will be required. More extensive the treatment is, the rounder the inword edges must be. A relationship with the heat treatment plant and the designer of such peaces must be uptained.(The manager at Thermetco explained this to me)
Plus a used gears may have contraints in it, of the tention it holdsup. It can also have sharp inword edges from wear that could create tentions in it's cooling. When a part is concieved, the machining and shape is determined by the degree of heat treatments that will be required. More extensive the treatment is, the rounder the inword edges must be. A relationship with the heat treatment plant and the designer of such peaces must be uptained.(The manager at Thermetco explained this to me)
Little Beavis
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- 2001 MP3-T (#911)
I was going to do this, but decided it was a waste. In some cases it works, in some it doesn't, it really depends upon who does it (as explained above), but also more importantly how the material had been treated previously (which we don't really know) and so on.
To get it done you need to disassemble the entire trans, and send only the individual pieces and getting the trans taken apart and cleaned up is a lot of work for something that may or may not work. I can't say that it doesn't work, but I have yet to see any proof that it does work and I've talked to a lot of people and places about this. Besides, I'm still waiting to see someone on here bust the gears (other than GOTZOOM? who still hasn't posted pictures). Most of the failures have been shift forks and synchros, and those aren't really from too much power.
To get it done you need to disassemble the entire trans, and send only the individual pieces and getting the trans taken apart and cleaned up is a lot of work for something that may or may not work. I can't say that it doesn't work, but I have yet to see any proof that it does work and I've talked to a lot of people and places about this. Besides, I'm still waiting to see someone on here bust the gears (other than GOTZOOM? who still hasn't posted pictures). Most of the failures have been shift forks and synchros, and those aren't really from too much power.
or baby)?Here is a response from one of my former professors who is also one of the leading researchers and authorities in metallurgy:
Steve,
I am sorry for not replying sooner, but your email was quickly buried in the queue.
Here's the dope on cryogenically treated metal. There is no scientific evidence (peer-
reviewed journals and trade journals) that such treatment improves mechanical properties.
In non-scientific journals I have seen articles that claim benefits of the treatment, but there
was no scientific methods applied. There may be some favorable residual stress patterns
that are produced by the thermal stresses generated that have a beneficial effect on fatigue
properties. On the other hand, since no hard data is ever given, it may be a case of the
self-fulfilling prophecy. Until I see credible data, I will remain skeptical.
Dr. J
Steve,
I am sorry for not replying sooner, but your email was quickly buried in the queue.
Here's the dope on cryogenically treated metal. There is no scientific evidence (peer-
reviewed journals and trade journals) that such treatment improves mechanical properties.
In non-scientific journals I have seen articles that claim benefits of the treatment, but there
was no scientific methods applied. There may be some favorable residual stress patterns
that are produced by the thermal stresses generated that have a beneficial effect on fatigue
properties. On the other hand, since no hard data is ever given, it may be a case of the
self-fulfilling prophecy. Until I see credible data, I will remain skeptical.
Dr. J
zoomzoom02
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interesting...yeah i would need to see proof before i went and burned a lot of cash on something like that
that guy in vegas with the DragP5 has cryo-treated trannies..check with him..i think he's running a lot of power.
Uh... you seem to have missed the point.. The cryo treat has nothing to do with it... it's a gimmick.. there is NO evidence it actually works... if it was significant it would metallurgically be indicative. The hardness, Poisson's ratio, Young's Modulus or other material property would have to be modified... and nothing to date has shown that.. so my point is it's BS and has never been proven... just because some guy has lots of power and a cryoed tranny doesn't mean anything... you could very likely have one without the other.
whoa there asshole..i was just trying to help out..
hey ease up... I wasn't being an asshole... I was pointing out that you were saying some guy has cryo treated trannies and runs lots of power... that doesn't equate to cryotreating works which is what most people would read from your statement. So I was being clear...
Second of all I'd be happy to apologize if I was being a dick.. just pm me and I'd modify my statements if I could to make them less abrasive if they were. No need to flame me publicly for trying to provide solid and clear information. So please take it easy. I'm certainly not trying to be an ass or undermine you or your statements.
Second of all I'd be happy to apologize if I was being a dick.. just pm me and I'd modify my statements if I could to make them less abrasive if they were. No need to flame me publicly for trying to provide solid and clear information. So please take it easy. I'm certainly not trying to be an ass or undermine you or your statements.
msubullyfan
Yeah, I'm an engineer...
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- 2005 Nissan Frontier 4x4
My job function is a machinery engineer. I have a lot of experience in cryo-treating of machinery parts, and here's what I can tell you from experience...
1 - During initial manufacturing, cryo-treating can work well to increase the hardness of materials, thereby reducing the wear rate of the part. However, if adjoining parts are NOT cryo-treated, it will by default increase the wear rate on them by contact with the cryo-treated part.
2 - The results of cryo-treatment AFTER parts have been in service is more hit-and-miss. It's very dependent on the alloy used, and in many carbon steel alloys, it can lead to embrittlement of the material, causing a greater propensity for fracture.
I don't recommend it for a transmission unless you can find documented research on the specific alloy that you're looking at treating. I don't have time to find the exact alloys that are used for the transmission parts, so I can't comment on whether or not it might be successful.
1 - During initial manufacturing, cryo-treating can work well to increase the hardness of materials, thereby reducing the wear rate of the part. However, if adjoining parts are NOT cryo-treated, it will by default increase the wear rate on them by contact with the cryo-treated part.
2 - The results of cryo-treatment AFTER parts have been in service is more hit-and-miss. It's very dependent on the alloy used, and in many carbon steel alloys, it can lead to embrittlement of the material, causing a greater propensity for fracture.
I don't recommend it for a transmission unless you can find documented research on the specific alloy that you're looking at treating. I don't have time to find the exact alloys that are used for the transmission parts, so I can't comment on whether or not it might be successful.
