cp-e winter fuel cut fix.

[www.cp-e.com]

jordan u are the man. thanks for helping me figure out my tps issues on my standback.

(alright)

No problem! I'm glad to hear that everything is working as it should now. If you have any questions about the Standback and/or how to operate it please don't hesitate to give me a call on Monday.

 

[jp4130]

I guess it would be less ghetto if they slapped a sticker on it and charged you 75 bucks?

Proper customer support WTF? This is a fix given to everyone for *free* CP-E customer or not. Last time i checked its not CP-E's job to give customer support to all mazdaspeed owners.
You b**** and moan because they *spend* their R&D time to make a solution for cold temperature related fuel cut. Get off the CP-E hater-boi wagon please.

If you dont like it then dont use it, but dont bash them just because they give something to the community. More information is always a good thing.

What bandwagon?

Umm, jackass, Lou made the pot contraption and did all the calculations to figure out what was going on. Jordan sat with me holding the scan tool (at the time I didn't have a dashhawk) and watched the timing advance to make sure the car wasn't pulling timing. I spent time taking datalogs and isolating the conditions that cause fuel cut and the IAT settings necessary to prevent it. Jordan wrote up the instructions on how to do the mod. They aren't making a dime on this so their time was donated

.

I do not think that research and developement is a donation, it benifets speed owners; however in the end it benifets cp-e. Knowledege of the cars they make parts and ecu controllers for is what makes them their money. No one would by parts that do not work. The more they know the more business will come thier way.

First and foremost, thanks to those with the appreciative comments. We were incredibly excited to release this info to everyone, and many of your comments make our work worth while. So thanks all!!! (headbang)

I'm not surprised that some still aren't satisfied with us distributing free fixes for a very persistent problem, and that's really okay. We're going to continue to try to figure out this vehicle, and we'll work with the portion of the community that wants to work with us. If you don't want to work with us, or don't have anything constructive to add, I'm going to ask you nicely to leave the thread. You don't have to agree with us on all points, but please don't start trouble. We're trying to learn and share ideas here.

In regards to the comments Haltech and ATEBaller made, those are the two leading theories at the moment. We tend to believe that the ECU was programmed using a visual based programming language that lacks the fine control over feedback loops that manual programming inherently has, and that this cold weather fuel cut is totally unintentional. I think the fact that there are many triggers for fuel cuts has confused things to a degree, and we're going to work to see exactly what's going on. We're busy with another project at the moment, but once Lou is finished (he's putting a Standback on a 335i at the moment) we'll revisit the fuel cut issue and run some more tests. We'd like to explore ATE's comments about fueling, and hopefully we'll have some answers soon.

In the mean time, those who are going to give this mod a shot, we'd really like to hear your feedback, especially if you have tools like a DashHawk. We'd love to see what everyone finds, and what everyone's thoughts are. There are some very smart people on the forums, and I'd like to hear what they have to say. Let's please keep this clean, and more importantly, let's figure this fcuking car out!!!!!!

(spin)

The reason for my post was this:
I really think you should have "figured this fcucking car out !!!!!! prior to releasing products.
I am not trying to be negative toward cp-e; I am actually quite impressed with the downpipe you guys make
I also think that you guys can and will find a better solution for this.

 

[Haltech]

First and foremost, thanks to those with the appreciative comments. We were incredibly excited to release this info to everyone, and many of your comments make our work worth while. So thanks all!!! (headbang)

I'm not surprised that some still aren't satisfied with us distributing free fixes for a very persistent problem, and that's really okay. We're going to continue to try to figure out this vehicle, and we'll work with the portion of the community that wants to work with us. If you don't want to work with us, or don't have anything constructive to add, I'm going to ask you nicely to leave the thread. You don't have to agree with us on all points, but please don't start trouble. We're trying to learn and share ideas here.

In regards to the comments Haltech and ATEBaller made, those are the two leading theories at the moment. We tend to believe that the ECU was programmed using a visual based programming language that lacks the fine control over feedback loops that manual programming inherently has, and that this cold weather fuel cut is totally unintentional. I think the fact that there are many triggers for fuel cuts has confused things to a degree, and we're going to work to see exactly what's going on. We're busy with another project at the moment, but once Lou is finished (he's putting a Standback on a 335i at the moment) we'll revisit the fuel cut issue and run some more tests. We'd like to explore ATE's comments about fueling, and hopefully we'll have some answers soon.

In the mean time, those who are going to give this mod a shot, we'd really like to hear your feedback, especially if you have tools like a DashHawk. We'd love to see what everyone finds, and what everyone's thoughts are. There are some very smart people on the forums, and I'd like to hear what they have to say. Let's please keep this clean, and more importantly, let's figure this fcuking car out!!!!!!

(spin)

We are all trying to help fix this problem. My Dashhawk is shipping out on monday, so i know ill be doing some datalogs with conjunction of the resistors on the IAT to see what the computer does.

 

[dadasracecar]

Anybody try this yet? Post your results.

 

[Haltech]

Here's a sure tail way of finding out if this cold weather fix works.

You will need a 50K VARIABLE resistor part #2711716. Unplug the IAT sensor and solder 2 leads to the VR. Plug it into the IAT sensor connector using make spade connectors. This should allow you to lower your IAT temps down to 15F. Technically this should allow you to re-create the low temperature reading to see what the hell the computer is doing.

For you guys in colder temps.. you could raise the resistance on the VR to increase the temp of what the IAT would read and perhaps, keep you from seeing this fuel cut issues. Its worth a shot and is less than $3. Worth a shot to anyone having these issues.

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Here's a sure tail way of finding out if this cold weather fix works.

You will need a 50K VARIABLE resistor part #2711716. Unplug the IAT sensor and solder 2 leads to the VR. Plug it into the IAT sensor connector using make spade connectors. This should allow you to lower your IAT temps down to 15F. Technically this should allow you to re-create the low temperature reading to see what the hell the computer is doing.

For you guys in colder temps.. you could raise the resistance on the VR to increase the temp of what the IAT would read and perhaps, keep you from seeing this fuel cut issues. Its worth a shot and is less than $3. Worth a shot to anyone having these issues.

I question the wisdom of completely defeating this circuit. It seems to me that the smart thing to do would be to figure out at what voltage the problem starts and make a circuit that prevents the system from ever "seeing" that low a temperature, but still can allow higher temperatures to be seen. This wouldn't be that hard if I knew exactly how the factory circuit works.

 

[Haltech]

I question the wisdom of completely defeating this circuit. It seems to me that the smart thing to do would be to figure out at what voltage the problem starts and make a circuit that prevents the system from ever "seeing" that low a temperature, but still can allow higher temperatures to be seen. This wouldn't be that hard if I knew exactly how the factory circuit works.

Youre not defeating this circuit. This is a way to TEST the operating conditions cold weather people are seeing within their IAT. This should help isolate the problem as it can be easily re-produced. More importantly however, you can use this to increase the IAT temperature of the outside temperature so you dont experience the fuel cut. Ive been running IAT mods since 1990 in my Mustang GT. You should be seeing timing pulled in hotter temperatures and timing increased during colder temperatures.

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Youre not defeating this circuit. This is a way to TEST the operating conditions cold weather people are seeing within their IAT. This should help isolate the problem as it can be easily re-produced. More importantly however, you can use this to increase the IAT temperature of the outside temperature so you dont experience the fuel cut. Ive been running IAT mods since 1990 in my Mustang GT. You should be seeing timing pulled in hotter temperatures and timing increased during colder temperatures.

Agree completely. The general point of this thread looks to me to be to set the circuit to see one temperature and leave it that way, at least during the winter. I know that you did say "test", but we both know better.

 

[dadasracecar]

Sorry, I'm not an electrical engineer but isn't a variable resistor essentially the same thing as a potentiometer in this case? I was able to move the fuel cut by dialing in higher IATs. So at the lower temps, i was, in effect, causing it. I never went below 64 deg on the MAF IAT which tells me it's not completely dependent on that IAT sensor but more a calculation btw several (MAP, MAP IAT, MAF, MAF IAT, RPM, Gear, etc). Currently we have no way to read the MAP IAT but MSD is working on that for the DH.

 

[Haltech]

Sorry, I'm not an electrical engineer but isn't a variable resistor essentially the same thing as a potentiometer in this case? I was able to move the fuel cut by dialing in higher IATs. So at the lower temps, i was, in effect, causing it. I never went below 64 deg on the MAF IAT which tells me it's not completely dependent on that IAT sensor but more a calculation btw several (MAP, MAP IAT, MAF, MAF IAT, RPM, Gear, etc). Currently we have no way to read the MAP IAT but MSD is working on that for the DH.

Yes it is Dada, but its a cheaper, more fine tuned way to a Potentiometer. You can get 10-30 click VR's for precise trimming and WITHOUT the worry of the Potentiometer being bumped and screwing up the settings. Potentiometers are very sensitive to movement and vibration. Variable Resistors are what i use on volt modding video cards and motherboards. You can also get the temp sender wire from the map. throw on another VR and trim that to dial in the temperature to help isolate the fuel cut. Its not the best solution but its better than nothing.

I believed between the IAT and MAP, you can trim both components and stop this problem in cold winter temperatures.

This was my original idea back in Nov but i didnt have a way to datalog the results like i do now. Its just another option for those who want an easier solution or something they can do during the cold weather that is set until it warms up. I really do hope this problem gets sorted out software wise on all of the available ECU systems soon.

Also, for guys at the track, they can dump their race fuel in the car in summer/spring, lower the IAT and add some timing to the car. Ive picked up as much as 1.5 - 2 mph trap speeds playing with VR's on the IAT in some of my vehicles over the years.

 

[tru-boost]

what you guys all seem to be missing is that this is still s FUEL problem. lying to the iat sensor wont help you. the reason the car cuts in cold temps is because cold dense air needs more fuel to be present. when the iac sees the temp of the air and the maf sees the volume comming in the ecu calculates how much fuel to add. the problem comes when the amount of fuel availabe is less than what the ecu wants. then......cut ! ok now if you modify the iat sensor the car adds fuel based on a warmer temp. the car runs lean and/or knocks....now the car pulls timimg and is slower than if you just let it cut.
if there is more fuel available from say..... a new high pressure fuel pump, there should be enough fuel to feed that cold dense air, at any rpm until that pump too reaches its limit.

 

[Haltech]

what you guys all seem to be missing is that this is still s FUEL problem. lying to the iat sensor wont help you. the reason the car cuts in cold temps is because cold dense air needs more fuel to be present. when the iac sees the temp of the air and the maf sees the volume comming in the ecu calculates how much fuel to add. the problem comes when the amount of fuel availabe is less than what the ecu wants. then......cut ! ok now if you modify the iat sensor the car adds fuel based on a warmer temp. the car runs lean and/or knocks....now the car pulls timimg and is slower than if you just let it cut.
if there is more fuel available from say..... a new high pressure fuel pump, there should be enough fuel to feed that cold dense air, at any rpm until that pump too reaches its limit.

I would say i agree with you until Looshy put his pump in. Now the " not enough fuel for denser air " goes into the trash. I believe this is actually a timing issue. The computer is saying, look.. add this much timing for this outside air temp. Somewhere along the lines, i think the ECU programming has a max timing table for this particular weather temperature. This is definately a fail safe, but for modded CDFP's, its not necessary. I think youre better off raising the IAT temp to remove the timing. This reminds me of Ford's PID control for the intercooler liquid pump to shut off when the IAT sees air temps below 40F.

We can revisit this argument when we all get our AP's and see what the hell happens with you folks back east. At least we will see some datalogging from the Dashhawk folks and nail this down.

 

[tru-boost]

my understanding of laloosh's pump was that it worked great until he tried tweaking it with the standback. who knows i guess. we need some more cars with fuel pump to find out.

 

[dadasracecar]

what you guys all seem to be missing is that this is still s FUEL problem. lying to the iat sensor wont help you. the reason the car cuts in cold temps is because cold dense air needs more fuel to be present. when the iac sees the temp of the air and the maf sees the volume comming in the ecu calculates how much fuel to add. the problem comes when the amount of fuel availabe is less than what the ecu wants. then......cut ! ok now if you modify the iat sensor the car adds fuel based on a warmer temp. the car runs lean and/or knocks....now the car pulls timimg and is slower than if you just let it cut.
if there is more fuel available from say..... a new high pressure fuel pump, there should be enough fuel to feed that cold dense air, at any rpm until that pump too reaches its limit.

This is not true. I had fuel cut when it was cold with the upgraded pump. My understanding is that Laloosh also had fuel cut in cold weather. I could lower my boost to 15.6 and with my mods get fuel cut if it was below 40.
The guys at cp-e believe that mazda used a graphics based software to map out the ecu parameters. That is seemingly fine for stock cars but when pushed outside the normal operating parameters you can get unexplainable (illogical) response. In this case fuel cut happens. We've figured out that it's temperature related but we also know that CAIs, DPs, and ICs also have an effect in that we don't see the temperature effect without doing at least one of these mods. Our current hypothesis is that there is some calculation going on btw the map and maf IAT sensors.

 

[jp4130]

hypothesis

You guys are really ballsy if you are tuning based on your "hypothesis."
Sounds risky as hell.

 

[dadasracecar]

I'm watching my afr and timing 100% of the time with the dashhawk. Nothing out of the ordinary to report. The wbO2 (or MAP IAT) sensor seems to have priority in closed loop as it should.

 

[knowledge007]

knowledge has fuel cut, (notcool) maybe he just got a weird car, hopefully i dont get fuel cut with cp-e dp when i get one

I don't think it was fuel cut. And Auto, remember I have the full 3"s. Not just a DP. I don't know what it is.

 

[driver311]

I spoke with laloosh last night. HIS CAR HAS NEVER HAD FUEL CUT SINCE THe PUMP INSTALL. End of story. It was 16 degrees in boise last night and my car wasnt cutting at 20psi.

 

[laloosh]

no no, my car never sputtered since the fuel pump. my car did boost cut under 4k rpm in very cold weather if i went wot throttle. This would only happen if i really loaded the car up. 4th gear 40mph at wot it would cut. if i go through the gears starting in 1st or 2nd or 3rd at a higher rpm, it never cut.

 

[driver311]

Thats only becuase of no mapclamp or bcd!