Cobb or Hypertech

[gudzspeed3]

So I'm finally thinking about a tune and wanted to know if a Cobb AP was worth the money for my mods. Its a daily driver and i don't know anything about tuning or monitoring or anything, i just want to give the car a little boost, without all the complications.

I'm basically all COBBed out. I have the CBE, TIP, SRI Springs, Sways and a Forge BPV

What are the difficulties in long run?

*IDK ANYTHING ABOUT TUNING OR MONITORING SO IM JUST LOOKING FOR AN EASY DIY TUNE AND BE ABLE TO DRIVE IT DD.*

Thanks so much for any help in advance!

 

[chimmike]

Yes. Tuning it is VERY easy and there are TONS of people who can help you tune the accessport. Infinitely more flexibility and continued support for the accessport.

I'm a daily driver too. But I'm big turbo. 75 miles per day round trip, no problems.

Difficulties in the long run? none.

 

[Pololo_MS3]

If you really want a TRULY Plug and Play system, then HT is your better option. There are 2 for sale now in this forum for like $275.00 which is a great price IMO. I "love" COBB products but the simplicity of the HT, for my DD is tough to beat.

Any parameter that you mess up when tuning could easily be the culprit of more problems to come down the road. I have tuned rewriting entire fuel/ignition maps in my track days (Turbo Miata) but you really really need to know what you are doing. For simplicity, HT is the winner.

Carlos

 

[MSMS3]

OP: Please use the "Search" function and then make up your own mind.

I like HT and think it is an excellent choice for use with any and all bolt-on mods as long as you are running the stock K04 turbo. I posted data logs and virtual dyno comparos that seem to me to pretty convincingly establish that the two products, although appealing to different types of users and are almost like apples and oranges from a comparison standpoint, actually are not far apart in terms of actual performance if the user is sticking with the stock K04 turbo and is not going beyond bolt-on mods.

Stated more bluntly, even on fully bolted first gen MS3 cars, you'd have to go to stage 2 and custom tuning on AP to demonstrate even a slight improvement in performance on K04 turboed cars, compared to HT.

And HT does essentially the same thing, performance wise without the risks attendant with making a mapping mistake (even guys at or close to pro tuning level have made that mistake and blown engines). It also does it without giving up the super rich AFR's under WOT out at 6,000 rpm and higher that Mazda designed into the engine operation to provide cylinder cooling and keep exhaust gas temps down to save the life of the turbo and the engine.

AP tunes that carry boost 18 psi and higher out past 6,000 rpm, as many of the stage 2 and custom tunes do in order to build power, are not making much more power but are putting the K04 turbo into serious inefficiency.

Others will disagree with me, but the objective data points this out.

Now, I must give AP its proper due: It is an extremely powerful and versatile tuning device. It can do many things that HT cannot do and it can do them extremely well in the hands of someone who knows how to use it properly and not make a mistake. It is absolutely the way to go if you plan on upgrading to a bigger turbo, or if you plan on aftermarket manifolds, custom cylinder head work, such as porting and polishing or different cam profiles, or if you are going to run non-standard size MAF housing, blow through MAF sensor setup or other more advanced mods beyond bolt-ons. For those "built" engine type mods, AP is absolutely THE way to go.

For guys like me who want a very safe tune that has NEVER been shown to produce a blown engine on this platform and which produces 99% of the performance improvement of AP when running the stock turbo, it's a good alternative.

Finally, I'll return to what I said at the beginning. Do your own homework, OP. Read, read, read. Gather the facts. And, I mean objective facts, and not merely opinions. Either choice is great. I chose HT and given that I plan to stick with bolt-ons on the stock turbo, I have absolutely no reason to consider AP.

 

[b e z]

Never used an Ap but I have a hypertech and it is very simple, plug it in, choose options and there you go. What you need to do is think long term and if you plan on doing more mods than your bolt ons, if not go hypertech since you want something simple.

 

[Wurf]

So why does the OP have an AP in his sig when he's asking about which one to buy?
MSMS3 gets a +1 from me
Going with an HT next spring but all I'm running is a CAI, a RMM and possibly a test pipe if I get the nerve.

 

[saxmanbrad]

HT is great! three thumbs up!

 

[saxmanbrad]

now i wish they'd make it for the CX7 so I get my wife's car making the power it should.

 

[08cosmic3]

What is does your Fuel Pressure read on the HT? What does the HT read out on your Air/fuel ratio?

 

[MSMS3]

^ Not quite sure what you are getting at. HT does not have built in monitoring. Many of us have other ways to do that and have found that HT tuning is extremely safe.

Fuel pressure is going to change depending on engine load. It also is highly dependent on the condition of the high pressure fuel pump itself and whether the car has the stock pump or upgraded pump. Generally speaking, my fuel pressure on HT remained the same as it did on stock tune. The ECU will command up to about a maximum of 1670 psi or so depending on load. The fuel pump needs to be able to keep up with that, regardless of whether it is stock tune, HT or AP or any other tune. A failing pump will have problems with either HT or AP, due to increased load tables. A stock pump that is in good condition on a gen 1 car will have no trouble.

My pump began to start failing a couple months ago with pressures falling down below 1600 and finally down to the 1400's under maximum load, which occurs at around 4,000 rpm WOT, not up at high rpm as some might expect. I replaced the pump internals. I'm now seeing a fuel rail pressure as high as 2100 psi on the new Autotech pump internals. I think this is a function of the pump's capacity, and not related to whether this is HT or AP tuning.

Regarding AFR's HT has a different philosophy in tuning than AP. HT used exhaust gas temperature measurements in its R&D. By design, HT also is intended to preserve Mazda's engineering desire to keep AFR's super rich at high rpm under load so as to continue the manufactuer's intent to provide the extra fuel for cylinder cooling to keep EGT's under control, but to be far more aggressive on timing advance than AP under similar conditions. For instance, I see as much as 18 degrees of timing advance approaching redline. This is an apples and oranges comparison - different approaches.

AP custom tuners seem to prefer leaning out the tune at high rpm, while being more conservative on timing advance. AP custom tuners frequently maintain 18 psi or higher out past 6,000 rpm, sometimes all the way to redline.

The different philosophies produce similar outcomes on the stock K04 turbo. I prefer tapering boost and keeping AFR's rich to keep the turbo in its efficiency range and keep exhaust gas temps under control. The power gains at higher rpm come from more aggressive timing advance and the increased load tables.

 

[b e z]

I think we all know what arguement he is trying to stir up.

 

[fishdonotbounce]

Do you have any sort of monitoring going on? Gauges? DashHawk? If not, you really need to get it and check your fuel pressure, afr's etc.

 

[b e z]

I think we need to get the answer Wurf asked seeing as his sig says he already has an AP, doesnt make any sense.

 

[MSMS3]

Do you have any sort of monitoring going on? Gauges? DashHawk? If not, you really need to get it and check your fuel pressure, afr's etc.

I agree, but who are you directing the statement/question to?

I am monitoring, probably obsessively, and posting logs and VD charts all over the place, on this and other boards. The results of that monitoring demonstrates very clearly that HT, even on fully bolted cars, is extremely safe, provided that the stock K04 is still in place.

For those running HT, there really is no need to be concerned about monitoring multiple parameters, IMHO, provided they know that their cam driven fuel pump rail pressure is at least 1500 psi, preferably 1600 psi under load, so they can know whether they need to upgrade the pump internals for that reason. And everyone, regardless of mods, should at least have a boost/vacuum gauge. Those who already have upgraded pump internals, probably do not need to monitor anything beyond boost and vacuum.

HT tune is not going to lean out the engine. It is not going to push boost above 18 psi at 6,000 rpm or above. HT tune has a reasonably raised load limit. Those features pretty much mean that exhaust gas temps are going to stay safe. I have no way to directly measure EGTs. That would require a temperature probe directly into the turbo. My scanning software (ScanXL Pro) can provide a calculated EGT what is a reasonable estimate based on data collected from the wideband sensor, and my calculated EGT's are staying below 1500 degrees F., which I consider to be safe.

 

[MSMS3]

Maybe the short answer to the AP crowd is that good R&D by HT has resulted in a well-performing tune that is extremely safe.

You don't have to monitor all those parameters because you never have to be concerned that you or some so-called "pro" tuner made a big mistake in one cell of your map and you end up with leaned out AFR's, or fuel demands that exceed your pump's capacity, or excessive boost that pushed the turbo into extreme ineffeciency.

I have really good monitoring equipment, far better than AP or Dash Hawk, and after spending a lot of time looking at every engine operating parameter I can think of, I can't find a single thing to suggest that a HT user needs to do all that monitoring if running the stock turbo.

 

[fishdonotbounce]

I agree, but who are you directing the statement/question to?

I am monitoring, probably obsessively, and posting logs and VD charts all over the place, on this and other boards. The results of that monitoring demonstrates very clearly that HT, even on fully bolted cars, is extremely safe, provided that the stock K04 is still in place.

For those running HT, there really is no need to be concerned about monitoring multiple parameters, IMHO, provided they know that their cam driven fuel pump rail pressure is at least 1500 psi, preferably 1600 psi under load, so they can know whether they need to upgrade the pump internals for that reason. And everyone, regardless of mods, should at least have a boost/vacuum gauge. Those who already have upgraded pump internals, probably do not need to monitor anything beyond boost and vacuum.

HT tune is not going to lean out the engine. It is not going to push boost above 18 psi at 6,000 rpm or above. HT tune has a reasonably raised load limit. Those features pretty much mean that exhaust gas temps are going to stay safe. I have no way to directly measure EGTs. That would require a temperature probe directly into the turbo. My scanning software (ScanXL Pro) can provide a calculated EGT what is a reasonable estimate based on data collected from the wideband sensor, and my calculated EGT's are staying below 1500 degrees F., which I consider to be safe.

To the OP