Clinton or Obama

[Donas64]

I'm not worried about it, I just want to know the truth and I want him to take some responsibility for his actions.

What I think is funny is that you guys and those like you are so eager to make it seem like this means NOTHING and it should not even be an issue.

Barack Obama has found out that when you say one thing in a campaign, and something like this occurs, its an issue whether you like it or not.

I'm black and its an issue for me. Its not just a race thing, its a principle thing.

 

[Donas64]

Why do you even care really as your on record as not going to vote for him and not buying anything he says. So what you think about the nature of the relationship is as pointless as the issue itself.

Retarded is most likely something you can opine on with great passion I'm sure. Your education and life experience has provided you with savant like wisdom.

Just because someone doesn't vote for Obama, does not mean that they will not be under his leadership and choices he makes will not affect them.

Saying that one should not care about a candidate at all just because they are not voting for them is just silly. As a Christian, I'm told to pray for those in authority over me because whether I like them or not, God has put them in a position of leadership and I should at least "render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar" so to speak.

One should be critical of all Candidates because of the responsibility that we are entrusting them with.

If I said something to the effect of: "You don't like George Bush, you didn't vote for Bush, and you think everything that comes out of Bush's mouth is a lie. Therefore what you think about him and all your opinions on his policies are pointless and worth nothing and you'd be better off just shutting up"

That makes no sense, but thats pretty much what you just said.


As I stated earlier: I don't think Obama is any sort of militant and I really do believe and wants to unite and bring "change" and I also think the Church was joined for political expediency.

But I do think a lot of people he surrounds himself with (including his wife) do have some deep seeded sense of "us vs them" and those are the people who will have his ear and his attention if he is elected to office. I want to know that HE will have the final say and not be guilted into a position or pressured into a position to make choices and take stands that will divide rather than unite.

 

[mysleeper6]

Faccism is not the way to go. That is not who we are supposed to be. If you don't know the true meaning of faccism look it up, that is slowly the type of country we have become.


Tax cuts for wealthy people increase their spending which helps our economy. Tax cuts for businesses keeps the COG low. Would you rather have more of the jobs here, but have the item costs a lot more?



The fact is illegal aliens cost our economy more every year than does the Iraq war. Try $338 billion a year! Here is a series of links to stories that will detail the cost.

$11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77
$1.9 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
$2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/200/fiscalexec.html
$12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
$17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
$3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
$90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare and Social Services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
(Link not active ... was not able to verify this information)
$200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two-and-a-half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report. http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
The National Policy Institute, estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period. http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States. http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html#Illegals
Total cost is a whopping... $338 BILLION A YEAR!!!

Remember, you started it.

I guess I am a smart guy. For one thing I know how to spell "fascism". For another, I know how to read critically. Anyone willing to do the work will see that you have double counted costs repeatedly, by using estimates from various sources for the same services.

This is from the first link you provided:

Illegal immigrants are barred from the following federal public benefits: grants, contracts, loans, licenses, retirement, welfare, health, disability, public or assisted housing, post secondary education, food assistance, and unemployment benefits. States are barred from providing state or locally funded benefits to illegal immigrants unless a state law is enacted granting such authority.

Oh, and it turns out that $11 to 22 billion figure is for legal aliens, not illegals.

The next link yields these gems:

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.

So, it seems that the real problem is not their presence here, but the fact that they are willing to work for low wages, or that the wages they earn are paid under the table. As I said in my earlier post, before you vilify the worker remember that there is some dirtbag who is illegally employing them. This is your friends' problem.

The last skill I will demonstrate here is my ability to do math. How the hell you added that string of numbers together (I particularly like the "$90 million, but I can't verify" figure) to get your final figure is beyond me. There is a lot of double counting and presumptive costs in your list, and even taking them at face value, I couldn't get $338B.

I know I am not going to change your mind about this issue. I just read your links and the fact that you see them as support for your figure tells me you read them with a jaundiced eye in the first place (you had already made up your mind). But don't call me out and point to a bunch of fuzzy statistics for backup.

 

[Killer]

Love it.

 

[Knox Joe]

I think it is funny that you guys and those like you are so worried about this. I mean you act like Obama is going to get into office and paint the White House black and open up a Black Panther office. (rofl)

Then he will move all the white folks to concentration camps ...(silly)

That's as stupid a comment as the other comment.

All of my close friends are black.(screwy) I seriously have not one white friend I hang out with at all (besides my wife and brother).

That's not the point. And you're too far left to see it, so why bother? (dunno)

His preacher is telling his church to sing out "God Damn America." His preacher has the biggest racial chip on his shoulder that I have seen in a long time. Why would he not instill his values on someone he mentors?

Right. It's just his preacher.

Same BS rhetoric his campain advisors are spewing.

He's anti-capitalist, and anti-America.

 

[Knox Joe]

Remember, you started it.

I guess I am a smart guy. For one thing I know how to spell "fascism". For another, I know how to read critically. Anyone willing to do the work will see that you have double counted costs repeatedly, by using estimates from various sources for the same services.

This is from the first link you provided:

Illegal immigrants are barred from the following federal public benefits: grants, contracts, loans, licenses, retirement, welfare, health, disability, public or assisted housing, post secondary education, food assistance, and unemployment benefits. States are barred from providing state or locally funded benefits to illegal immigrants unless a state law is enacted granting such authority.

Oh, and it turns out that $11 to 22 billion figure is for legal aliens, not illegals.

The next link yields these gems:

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.

So, it seems that the real problem is not their presence here, but the fact that they are willing to work for low wages, or that the wages they earn are paid under the table. As I said in my earlier post, before you vilify the worker remember that there is some dirtbag who is illegally employing them. This is your friends' problem.

The last skill I will demonstrate here is my ability to do math. How the hell you added that string of numbers together (I particularly like the "$90 million, but I can't verify" figure) to get your final figure is beyond me. There is a lot of double counting and presumptive costs in your list, and even taking them at face value, I couldn't get $338B.

I know I am not going to change your mind about this issue. I just read your links and the fact that you see them as support for your figure tells me you read them with a jaundiced eye in the first place (you had already made up your mind). But don't call me out and point to a bunch of fuzzy statistics for backup.

With what you posted you are instilling my point even further. They are uneducated, not striving as a group to become so, not paying their share of taxes, and working for less. Right from your post.

You think that's okay?(encourage

I guess we should punish our legal citizens who are uneducated and have to do general labor and line level jobs huh?

And yes it all stems back to the employer. I have said it for years, if the Govt' would just shut down a few larger corps for breaking employment laws we'd eradicate the problem completely.

Even if the numbers are slightly off (there not mine BTW, found them on another site) the cost to us is still huge, and still they cost us about what the war is.

So back to the original question, that never got answered;

Why worry about the money for Iraq but not the money spent on illegals?

Also, LEGALLY an illegal cannot get social services, but they do anyways. Legally or not, they do get social services, with fake SS numbers, and many other ways they have found to dupe our system. Have you ever spoken to someone who works in the hospital in an area of higher illegal immigrant number? Maybe you should. They are causing hospital to charge more to legal paying citizens because we have to offset the costs of giving illegals health care.

 

[Killer]

He's anti-capitalist, and anti-America.

and he is not running for president.

 

[Knox Joe]

and he is not running for president.

I was talking about Obama...

 

[Killer]

I was talking about Obama...

Then my honest opinion is you are wrong. I think Obama truly cares about America.

 

[Knox Joe]

Then my honest opinion is you are wrong. I think Obama truly cares about America.

For everyone's sake I hope you're right.(nailbyt)


and I feel the same way about GWB.

 

[Donas64]

Then my honest opinion is you are wrong. I think Obama truly cares about America.

And I agree with you. I think he truly does (in his own way) care about America. It just puzzles me then why he chose to associate so closely with people who clearly seem to hate America. Not that America is perfect but Rev. Wright believes that the "US of KKK-A" govt. developed HIV AIDS to engineer a black genocide! wha..huh?

Why Barack?

 

[BOOSTR]

That's just the way it is. Going on ad nauseum about it won't change it or deliver him to answer your question. Michelle won't be coming by to debate your opinion of her either for that matter. So let it go and move on. Or better yet pray about it and leave it in God's hands. The voters will decide the rest of it.

 

[pasadena_commut]

Saying that one should not care about a candidate at all just because they are not voting for them is just silly. As a Christian, I'm told to pray for those in authority over me because whether I like them or not, God has put them in a position of leadership and I should at least "render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar" so to speak.

Hopefully we will never elect a President who claims that God has selected him for the office. If we do, then you really better start praying. Also don't drink the the kool-aid.

As I stated earlier: I don't think Obama is any sort of militant and I really do believe and wants to unite and bring "change" and I also think the Church was joined for political expediency.

But I do think a lot of people he surrounds himself with (including his wife) do have some deep seeded sense of "us vs them" and those are the people who will have his ear and his attention if he is elected to office. I want to know that HE will have the final say and not be guilted into a position or pressured into a position to make choices and take stands that will divide rather than unite.

A lot of American blacks, especially older blacks, have that sort of attitude. They are still carrying around hundreds of years of "terrible things have happened to us" in their family history, and have a very hard time getting beyond that. Obama does not seem to be carrying any of that baggage, and there is no reason he should since it never happened to his ancestors. He certainly understands these attitudes, but I've seen no evidence that he feels at all the same way. Presumably he would by now if he was ever going to.

The preacher thing is way out of proportion. The guy probably gave 2500 or so sermons in his life. A handful of them went beyond what most people are comfortable with. Still, I'd rather sit next to Obama's preacher on a plane than Ann Coulter. I'm pretty sure the intent of even his most inflammatory rhetoric was to make people think (hard, and about things they maybe would rather not consider), whereas nothing seems to come out of Ms. Coulter's mouth which isn't simply mean for mean's sake.

I also wonder if perhaps the original choice of church/preacher was more his wife's than his own. There are a lot of men who have no interest in religion at all and yet sit through a sermon every Sunday, primarily to insure domestic tranquility. Obama was eventually active in the church, which isn't surprising no matter what the reason they started going there. He definitely seems like the "get involved' sort of guy. People like that usually want to do more than just sit in the pew and yell Hallelujah.

 

[AndrewW]

If you sat next to Ann Coulter on a plane you would probably throw a pie in her face. If you sat next to Osama Bin Laden you would probably engage in conversation with him wondering why he hates America, and agreeing with every word that came out of his mouth. Just my opinion...

 

[Donas64]

If you sat next to Ann Coulter on a plane you would probably throw a pie in her face. If you sat next to Osama Bin Laden you would probably engage in conversation with him wondering why he hates America, and agreeing with every word that came out of his mouth. Just my opinion...

bingo!

Some people will excuse ANYTHING if it makes them feel better.

The same people giving Obama and his pastor a free pass would want to run rough-shod over Jerry Falwell and any candidate he would have supported.

At least I'm consistent in my criticism of both Liberal and Conservative candidates.

Best of luck to Obama, he's gunna need it.

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Bottom line is that the American people are screwed. Whichever one of these two gets chosen is not going to get elected, so it is four more years of republican presidency. If one of them does pull off the unexpected and gets into office, they will have so much baggage to deal with that they won't be able to accomplish anything worthwhile in terms of significant change that will benefit this country.
I am reminded of the year (1988) Bush and Dukakis were running. There was a bumper sticker that summed things up nicely:

Jack s*** for president

 

[SuperStretch18]

Bottom line is that the American people are screwed. Whichever one of these two gets chosen is not going to get elected, so it is four more years of republican presidency. If one of them does pull off the unexpected and gets into office, they will have so much baggage to deal with that they won't be able to accomplish anything worthwhile in terms of significant change that will benefit this country.
I am reminded of the year (1988) Bush and Dukakis were running. There was a bumper sticker that summed things up nicely:

Jack s*** for president

Every president has pundits and detractors. The biggest issue for whichever person becomes president will be to unite the two parties. I really am sick of all the partisan BS. I'm sick of "liberal" & "conservative" being bad words. I'm sick of pointing fingers and playing the blame game. I'm sick of people only agreeing with 100% of what their party says, without making decisions for themselves. I'm sick of government not really paying attention to its citizens. The "Us vs. Them" attitude is not working.

There is a lot of election politics going on right now, but once in office, I really feel that either Obama or McCain would be able to cross the aisle pretty effectively. (friday) Something I can't say about Hillary. (fight)

 

[Donas64]

Every president has pundits and detractors. The biggest issue for whichever person becomes president will be to unite the two parties. I really am sick of all the partisan BS. I'm sick of "liberal" & "conservative" being bad words. I'm sick of pointing fingers and playing the blame game. I'm sick of people only agreeing with 100% of what their party says, without making decisions for themselves. I'm sick of government not really paying attention to its citizens. The "Us vs. Them" attitude is not working.

There is a lot of election politics going on right now, but once in office, I really feel that either Obama or McCain would be able to cross the aisle pretty effectively. (friday) Something I can't say about Hillary. (fight)

I totally agree. The trick is crossing party lines while being true to yourself and your values.

Intelligent Bi-Partisanship with a little give & take would be great. The only problem is, some issues are split so MASSIVELY over party lines, reconciliation would be night impossible. It would take strong leadership for sure.

a strong 3rd party would also be great but thats just a dream.

 

[pasadena_commut]

If you sat next to Ann Coulter on a plane you would probably throw a pie in her face. If you sat next to Osama Bin Laden you would probably engage in conversation with him wondering why he hates America, and agreeing with every word that came out of his mouth. Just my opinion...

That Bin Laden shot was way out of line. Clearly our political views differ, but your assumption that puts mine anywhere near Bin Laden's is offensive.

(As for Ann Coulter, as a clown in the political freak show she should expect to receive the occasional pie in the face, but I would not be the one to throw it.)

 

[Donas64]

That Bin Laden shot was way out of line. Clearly our political views differ, but your assumption that puts mine anywhere near Bin Laden's is offensive.

(As for Ann Coulter, as a clown in the political freak show she should expect to receive the occasional pie in the face, but I would not be the one to throw it.)

I think he was more trying to make a point by exaggeration than anything else. Sorta the same thing you tried to do with your Anne Coulter / Rev. Wright Comment. Although there are people who would love to kiss up to Bin Laden and ask him what the US has done to offend him and how we can make him like us, I am in no place to make that judgment call about you.

I do wonder though, just out of curiosity: Why would you rather sit next to reverend Wright? Both him and Ann Coulter might have radical views but to the best of my knowledge only one of them has blamed 9/11 on America; Said that HIV AIDs was a product of the US govt to implement a Black Genocide; referred to his country as the "U S of KKK A" and damned their own country repeatedly.

What is it about him you find so fascinating but yet repulses you so much about Ann Coulter? Does it just come down to party affiliation so one can be excused and one can not? If so, thats sad.


Maybe that would explain Obamas' fascination with him also.