CamShaft Performance Question

[njaremka]

here's a new one for you guys:

now, the protege 2.0 liter has DOHC, and the exhaust cam is of a different profile from the intake, right? and talk is that you will see more gains from replacing the exhaust cam with the mazdaspeed cam, right? well, can't i just take a USDM intake cam and slap it into the exhaust position and get a performance jump?

if so, anyone want to send me thier intake cam they have left over form thier swap-out?

 

[KYREDP5]

I SERIOUSLY doubt it would work like that.

 

[chdesign]

It wouldn't work, the journal that lines up the cam with the cam gear is totally off from that position. You may be able to play with it enough to get it in the correct position but it woudl be a pain in the ass. Oh yeah good looking MP3 conversion. I'm thinking of doing it myself on my 00 ES and doign the whoel fenders and everythign but I've also been thinking about grafting some skyline headlights on mine and putting a R34 bumper on it.

 

[njaremka]

It wouldn't work, the journal that lines up the cam with the cam gear is totally off from that position. You may be able to play with it enough to get it in the correct position but it woudl be a pain in the ass. Oh yeah good looking MP3 conversion. I'm thinking of doing it myself on my 00 ES and doign the whoel fenders and everythign but I've also been thinking about grafting some skyline headlights on mine and putting a R34 bumper on it.

the pisture is of the mazdaspeed protege, not mine, unfortunately.

i thought the gears had two slots in them: one for use on the intake cam, and one for use on the exhaust cam. right?

 

[P_Diddy81_99]

here's a new one for you guys:

now, the protege 2.0 liter has DOHC, and the exhaust cam is of a different profile from the intake, right? and talk is that you will see more gains from replacing the exhaust cam with the mazdaspeed cam, right? well, can't i just take a USDM intake cam and slap it into the exhaust position and get a performance jump?

if so, anyone want to send me thier intake cam they have left over form thier swap-out?

Good idea but not quite. You have to remember that on the end of the Intake cam it is smooth, on the end of the Exaust cam ther is the gear for the distributer.

 

[njaremka]

Re: Re: CamShaft Performance Question

Good idea but not quite. You have to remember that on the end of the Intake cam it is smooth, on the end of the Exaust cam ther is the gear for the distributer.

on the new 2.0 liter engine, there is no distributor.

 

[P_Diddy81_99]

Re: Re: Re: CamShaft Performance Question

on the new 2.0 liter engine, there is no distributor.

Ahh good point nevermind then....my bad

 

[Zeus]

I know the billet cam blanks that MMS sells work for either the intake or exhaust, and Mazda probably starts with identical blanks for the stock cams as well. I have a pair of stock cams on my bench, and without a mic I can't tell the difference. Swapping them might work, but it sounds like a shot in the dark to me. Not really worth it considering you'd have to reset the lash, and timing just to find out.

If you want real cams buy the Mazda Motorsports blanks and have them machined to your specs. Crowler will charge about $500 for the work, and help with lobe design as well. That's my plan once I get a programmable controller installed. First things first.

 

[njaremka]

I know the billet cam blanks that MMS sells work for either the intake or exhaust, and Mazda probably starts with identical blanks for the stock cams as well. I have a pair of stock cams on my bench, and without a mic I can't tell the difference. Swapping them might work, but it sounds like a shot in the dark to me. Not really worth it considering you'd have to reset the lash, and timing just to find out.

If you want real cams buy the Mazda Motorsports blanks and have them machined to your specs. Crowler will charge about $500 for the work, and help with lobe design as well. That's my plan once I get a programmable controller installed. First things first.

do the intake and exhaust cam use the same base circle? if they do, i wouldn't have to worry about the lash, right? and why would i have to reset the timing? don't they just drop right in? the cam gears are marked for intake or exhaust use, and the cam would just have to be lined into the right slot, right? am i totally off base here?

i had thought about getting custom grinds, but i would want to pull the whole head, have it ported, flow tested, and have the cams made to give me the flattest torque curve this side of the great plains. and i fugure, if i'm removing the head, why not take the block apart and stick some high-comp pistons in there.

 

[prost]

What Kind of power and Torque can be gained from the MS cams? WIll they void the warranty? Is there anywhere on the net where there are dyno charts for these?

Thanks.

 

[njaremka]

What Kind of power and Torque can be gained from the MS cams? WIll they void the warranty? Is there anywhere on the net where there are dyno charts for these?

Thanks.

the mazda FS-ZE intake cam combined with the mazdaspeed exhaust cam will only yeild about 5-7 hp. with custom grinds, properly set up for the flow characteristics of the head, can yield about 10-20 hp.

 

[Protege01MP3]

i had thought about getting custom grinds, but i would want to pull the whole head, have it ported, flow tested, and have the cams made to give me the flattest torque curve this side of the great plains. and i fugure, if i'm removing the head, why not take the block apart and stick some high-comp pistons in there.

see.. now thats what im talkin bout... anyone got any type of estimate on what that would cost... labor-wise that is...?? i already got parts priced... basically.. what would labor costs be to install the two cams, hopefully cam gears, port, pistons??

ive also wanted to bore out to 2.2 if at all possible... anyone know if that would be too risky w/ our engines?

thanks
peace

 

[Zeus]

Yeah, the base circles are the same, but probably not quite enough so to get away without a lash adjustment. I know too, just from the specs that the lobe centers are slightly different, so you'll probaly find the timing needs adjusted as well.

Custom grinds won't require head work, but it would help. Keep the duration under 225 and separation angles close to 106, and the stock head will work fine. But if you do pull the head just deck 0.8mm and match volume the chambers. No need for pistons, unless you're shooting for over 180hp. But then you'll need rods anyway. Forget about a totally flat torque curve, it's already as flat as it can get. You'll have to give up something somewhere, to get gains else where. Right now the limit to cam design with the FS motor is the computer. Fix that and the door is wide open.

Swapping cams is a piece of cake, porting and pistons is a bit more of a pain. If you get the all the parts, a speed shop should be able to do all the work for under $2K. I understand a bore to 2.2L is out of the question, the cylinders are too close and the walls too thin. That's just what I've heard though.

My advice is to get a programmable computer, custom cams, and drive the crap out of it. Then when it's time for a rebuild, go all out. I'd hope by that time the aftermarket parts have caught up and forged flat top pistons will be $40 a pop and high strength rods will be widely available.

 

[Protege01MP3]

zeus.. you really are a god man.. lol..

wow.. you really know your FS....

yah.. i was afraid that the walls were way to thin to bore out.. oh well.. it was an idea.. but ok..

<MAGIC TRICK!>
ladies and gentlemen... for my next trick i will attempt to fit a 3rd gen RX7 brake conversion onto the back of my 01 mp3! you say it cant be done? you say im crazy?

no seriously folks... you think it can be done or not?? i tried calling the dealership... but they are assholes... they wont even help me w/ warranty issues.. much less give me an actual answer to questions like that...
</MAGIC TRICK!>

any input on the magic trick im about to perform would be great... thanx guys

ps.. i was scared to even mention the idea in the forum because i wanted to be super original... so please dont steal my idea!! lol... j/k.. if you think you can do it... go for it.. and then if i havent gotten it yet, please give me direction

Peace

 

[chdesign]

The mazdaspeed exhaust cam has a even wilder profile than the stock intake cam. The lobes are in the same position it sjust the journal position that is different. You could use one but like I said before you would have to find the right angle for the gear. The stock gear does have 2 slots bu tthey are about 110 degrees apart the cams have to be 180 degrees apart or in my case 185 degrees due to my cam gear. So yes you could use it but you would be better off just to buy the MS one sinces its only what 140 bucks.

 

[Zeus]

You're right ch. You made me get up and go look. I have a pair of brand new, still in the box stock cams in the garage. I never noticed the angular offset in the key way. But then I never took them out of the bag either. Cutting a new key way would be a snap, but the closeness of the new angle to the existing one would weaken it too much. It's that timing difference I was talking about before. Didn't look like a full 70 degrees to me. Maybe That's at the crank.

They're different castings too. Clearly won't work, or at least shouldn't be attempted.

I got a set of stock cams over the internet last year when I was planning on a hardface and regrind. Then I found out I could get the blanks from MMS, which would be cheaper overall, so I put the stock sticks on the shelf. These billet blanks are the same P/N for each side though. Custom grinds would cost much more, and require some sound engineering, but they are the fastest way to go.

 

[bill]

I've got '96 2.0 and can't use the MS exhaust cam because it lacks the disty gear. I've been trying to get ahold of an MS blank and then have a machine shop grind it down to the MS exhaust cam profile, but have them include a disty gear. From what you know of the MS blanks, is there sufficient material at the disty gear location for a machine shop to work with?

Thanks for your help!
Bill

 

[Zeus]

I couldn't say without having both cams in my hand, and I don't have one for a dist drive. You can send me yours and I'll take a look, or you could call Mazda Motorsports or Cork Sport. They should be able to tell ya, I recall them having a P/N for a 98-00 blank. But remember, not any shop can grind a cam.

 

[bill]

I'd like to go ahead and buy the MS blank and their exhaust cam. They say I cannot buy anything from them as I don't race my car in an organised club. Is there anyone who can buy these and mail them to me if I send them the funds?
Thanks,
Bill

 

[Zeus]

Try asking Mitch at http://www.protege5online.com/index.html