Camshaft idea

[MazdaSpeed626]

this kinda just dawned on me....but. Everyone knows that the specs(ie lift, duration, etc.) for both the intake and exhaust cams are the same except that they are just 180 degrees(approximately) apart. Now, people have said that you can take an FSZE intake cam to a machine shop and have them repin it to work on the exhuast side(ie flipping the pin approximately 180 degrees.)

Well don't most of the adjustable cam gears consist of 2 pieces that are held together by the adjuster bolts? if thats the case, then all you'd have to do is take your cam gear on your exhaust cam, take it apart, flip it 180 degrees, and then take it to the dyno to get timing right.

Now, i'm not sure if there are any cam gears that are able to be taken apart, but if so....then this idea of mine is brilliant.

 

[Gen1GT]

I don't know quite as much about the FS camshaft options, but your idea is similar to my 'exhintake' cam mod. On the BP, the exhaust cam has more duration and lift than the intake, so I cut of the CAS end, flipped it 180 plus 3 whole teeth clockwise, then fine-tuned the timing on the dyno. I got 8whp.

 

[MazdaSpeed626]

so you rekeyed the actual camshaft? see with my idea, it requires no modification whatsoever to camshaft, meaning no cutting, no welding, no machining.

Just take the adjuster bolts out of the cam gear, rotate it 180 degrees, put the bolts back in the cam gear, install the camshaft on the exhaust side, take it to the dyno and adjust exhaust side cam timing as needed. You now have a FSZE intake cam running as your exhaust cam and you didn't have to cut, weld or get anything machined.

 

[Kansei]

so you rekeyed the actual camshaft? see with my idea, it requires no modification whatsoever to camshaft, meaning no cutting, no welding, no machining.

Just take the adjuster bolts out of the cam gear, rotate it 180 degrees, put the bolts back in the cam gear, install the camshaft on the exhaust side, take it to the dyno and adjust exhaust side cam timing as needed. You now have a FSZE intake cam running as your exhaust cam and you didn't have to cut, weld or get anything machined.

But aren't adjustable cam gears a lot more expensive than just getting a cam repinned?

And if I recall correctly it wasn't the FSZE intake cam that you put on the exhaust side, it was the stock intake cam. That's why I kept my stock intake cam at least, to eventually repin and put on the other side when I get the time to install my timing belt.

 

[MazdaSpeed626]

How could it be that the stock intake cam would be better than the FSZE intake cam, regardless of whether or not you're using it on the exhuast side or not??? The FSZE cam has higher lift and duration than the stock intake cam...that makes it a better cam in general.

besides, i proposed this little bit of information for people that already have cam gears but have a stock exhuast cam. that way they can just buy an FSZE intake cam and not have to get it repinned for the exhuast side. soooooo all in all, if you're a true tuner, you already have adjustable cam gears AND you end up saving money by not having to get the exhaust cam repinned/keyed, whatever they hell you wanna call it.

 

[twilightprotege]

not a new idea. i've been telling ppl to do this for yonks with the stock intake cam.

it's not 180 deg difference either.

 

[Kansei]

The FSZE cam has higher lift and duration than the stock intake cam...that makes it a better cam in general.

Better cam in general? Now I don't claim to know too much about NA, but I don't see why if it was "better in general" that Mazda wouldn't sell it that way.

if you're a true tuner, you already have adjustable cam gears

Guess I'm no tuner poor grocery getter

I'm not trying to knock you I'm just saying what I've heard from a reputable person (probably the most knowledgeable NA guy on these forums), twilightprotege.

Twilight, MazdaSpeed626 does bring up a good point though, if one has adjustable cam gears could you get the FS-DE intake cam to go on the exhaust side without repinning?

 

[MyZmZm]

Better cam in general? Now I don't claim to know too much about NA, but I don't see why if it was "better in general" that Mazda wouldn't sell it that way.

I'm not trying to knock you I'm just saying what I've heard from a reputable person (probably the most knowledgeable NA guy on these forums), twilightprotege.

Twilight, MazdaSpeed626 does bring up a good point though, if one has adjustable cam gears could you get the FS-DE intake cam to go on the exhaust side without repinning?

same reason mazda sells the car in NA with less hp than in japan (as do a lot of other car manufacturers) - but yeah, why?

subbing for further info...

 

[MazdaSpeed626]

I might have come off as an asshole when i said "true tuners..." I didn't mean it like that...its just my way of thinking, i categorize car people into different sections....its kinda hard to explain. like for example, if you have a megasquirt, or adjustable cam gears, or something that you've modified where you've had to use a dyno to make adjustments to squeeze the most power you can out of that mod....i call those tuners because you're infact tuning the car. your people with intakes, exhausts....ya know just your basic bolt ons, i call these people modders, because they're modifying the stock setup. its nothing against anyone, tuners aren't any better people than modders. its just how i think...i'm too analytical sometimes i know, but i'm an engineer, i gotta be.

ANYWAYS, back to what i was saying about A-spec cams vs J-spec cams. The FSZE is a more powerful engine, yet, its not produced in any U.S. cars, and never has been...at least not a version that produces 170hp. soooooo in general, the FSZE is a better engine(i'm looking at this entire thing from a performance aspect, not economical).

Another good point is that when you take a motor, like a stock FSDE, and throw in a camshaft with higher lift and duration without modifying anything else(like cam timing), you could possibly run into a slightly loping idle....not something the average joe wants. besides, maybe if the FSZE was thought up earlier than 2000 or whenever it was invented, the parts we call jspec would have been used over here in america as stock parts. but jspec more often than not is always better than aspec.

Another reason the cams here in america are not as aggressive is the fact that this engine has been used in the mazda 626, mx-6, and ford probes for a long time. If you look at it from a non performance aspect, the average joe buying a mazda 626 or probe or whatever, is going to want a low/mid range cam for a better pedal feel, not a cam that puts most of the power after 4k rpms.

It all depends on how you look at it. From an economical standpoint, I guess you could say the aspec cams are better than jspec, but if its performance you're looking for, then its jspec all the way.

Oh, and i know its not exactly 180 degrees(its like 183 or something like that right?) but i also said that you flip 180, then go to a dyno and tune it for the power.

here i go again writing books and s***.

 

[Kansei]

same reason mazda sells the car in NA with less hp than in japan (as do a lot of other car manufacturers) - but yeah, why?

subbing for further info...

Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle status maybe? That's why we have VTCS too IIRC.

 

[Kansei]

I might have come off as an asshole when i said "true tuners..." I didn't mean it like that...its just my way of thinking, i categorize car people into different sections....its kinda hard to explain. like for example, if you have a megasquirt, or adjustable cam gears, or something that you've modified where you've had to use a dyno to make adjustments to squeeze the most power you can out of that mod....i call those tuners because you're infact tuning the car. your people with intakes, exhausts....ya know just your basic bolt ons, i call these people modders, because they're modifying the stock setup. its nothing against anyone, tuners aren't any better people than modders. its just how i think...i'm too analytical sometimes i know, but i'm an engineer, i gotta be.

Thanks for explaining that, makes a lot of sense. Yeah by that I'm definitely more of a modder. The most in-depth mod I've installed on my car was the FS-ZE intake cam but I've never done any dyno tuning or anything.

I think the reason we don't see the same HP figures here is less Mazda making the Protege more economical (why wouldn't Japanese buyers want an economical car too) and more of just our restrictive emissions requirements. Were there any CA-specific modifications done to this car? Maybe the whole continent is running on CA-approved models or something.

 

[Crazee D]

SALVATION
http://www.msprotege.com/vbb300/showthread.php?t=123624208

 

[MazdaSpeed626]

well....first of all, japans premium gas has like a minimum octane rating of like 100 or something. 100 octane gas paired with their ecu tuning they use from the factory can mean the difference between 150hp versus 120hp if you're only using 87 octane gas(just a guestimate). that and their culture is just completly different from ours.

....emissions does play SOME role with power output of these engines, but seriously, if you take every single emissions system off our vehicles, you wouldn't be looking at much of, if any, gains in power(except maybe a little from being catless).

 

[Gen1GT]

so you rekeyed the actual camshaft? see with my idea, it requires no modification whatsoever to camshaft, meaning no cutting, no welding, no machining.

Just take the adjuster bolts out of the cam gear, rotate it 180 degrees, put the bolts back in the cam gear, install the camshaft on the exhaust side, take it to the dyno and adjust exhaust side cam timing as needed. You now have a FSZE intake cam running as your exhaust cam and you didn't have to cut, weld or get anything machined.

Where did I say I rekeyed the camshaft? The exhaust cam is about 5 inches longer than the intake cam, because it has the Cam Angle Sensor/Distributor drive attached to one end. It won't fit in the intake side, unless you cut off that CAS end.

The cam is pinned so that it will only line up one way, even with my UR cam gears. So the entire assembly(cam and cam gear) has to be flipped upside down and then three whole teeth clockwise. Each tooth is good for approximately 15 of cam timing, so I'm actually rotating the cam 225 CW, or 135 CCW. At this point, I hit the dyno, and fine tuned cam timing, where -6 made the best power.

Strickly repinning a cam is highly inaccurate, when 2 of cam timing cam mean 2whp either way.

 

[Gen1GT]

well....first of all, japans premium gas has like a minimum octane rating of like 100 or something. 100 octane gas paired with their ecu tuning they use from the factory can mean the difference between 150hp versus 120hp if you're only using 87 octane gas(just a guestimate). that and their culture is just completly different from ours.

....emissions does play SOME role with power output of these engines, but seriously, if you take every single emissions system off our vehicles, you wouldn't be looking at much of, if any, gains in power(except maybe a little from being catless).

100 RON is only like, 95 octane here...

 

[Greensleeper]

Subs... Anyone tried it?

 

[MazdaSpeed626]

Where did I say I rekeyed the camshaft? The exhaust cam is about 5 inches longer than the intake cam, because it has the Cam Angle Sensor/Distributor drive attached to one end. It won't fit in the intake side, unless you cut off that CAS end.

The cam is pinned so that it will only line up one way, even with my UR cam gears. So the entire assembly(cam and cam gear) has to be flipped upside down and then three whole teeth clockwise. Each tooth is good for approximately 15 of cam timing, so I'm actually rotating the cam 225 CW, or 135 CCW. At this point, I hit the dyno, and fine tuned cam timing, where -6 made the best power.

Strickly repinning a cam is highly inaccurate, when 2 of cam timing cam mean 2whp either way.

I didn't take into account that you had a Gen1 and that fact that it has a distributor. I was more talking along the lines of the FS cams being versatile due to the fact that 98+ 626's and FS equipped protege's are distributorless.

 

[Innu_Qc]

Great thread .

I am looking to have my spare intake cam repinned for the exhaust. I found a place where to do it. The only thing I'm missing now is the right spec to have it done, I was considering starting a new post for this but since there is already one (this one ). I tought I just ask the question here so everyone will profit.

I know that just moving the cam gear 180 degrees won't cut it, so my question is how much degrees do we need to make it work?

For my second question, I perfectly understand that moving it without cam gears isn't the best, but I on a tight budget and I have other priorities far more pressing now. So assuming we get the right spec. Do you think it would be advisable to add some advance in the cam from the onset so it has more overlap than just putting it with stock timing?

 

[twilightprotege]

you'll need to take your stock exhaust cam along with the intake cam and they'll get it perfectly aligned

 

[Innu_Qc]

Make perfect sense, should of tought of it (poke).

But what about dialing in some advance ou retard while repinning. I know that cam gear are ideal but that wont be until a year or so. Would you have any recommandations? I want to move the power band upward, so I was thinking about advancing the cam between 2 to 4-5 degrees. I am going stand alone this spring but like to keep the stock cut-off of 7000 rpm and aiming for max power around 6500-6700 rpm.

So what would be your best guess for advance timing on the exhaust cam? Stock intake remains for the time being.