Bullet proof engines?

[starflare21]

All this said, how much would it cost approximately to bullet proof the engine?

you'd probably be looking at cost of pistons, rods, rings, gaskets, fastening hardware, bearings, head studs, machining/balancing the block, plus install (or at least a bare minimum quality one would consist of).

 

[MPNick]

All this said, how much would it cost approximately to bullet proof the engine?

Deans engine seems to be working well. We are a full engine machine shop in NJ. we can help. We are dealers for C-P, Manley, and just about any other brand you can think of.


Thanks again

Later................Nick

 

[mikesmazda200]

Deans engine seems to be working well. We are a full engine machine shop in NJ. we can help. We are dealers for C-P, Manley, and just about any other brand you can think of.


Thanks again

Later................Nick

How much for C-P pistons, and Pauter rods, or Oliver Billet rods? I saw somewhere on here that there is some company offering built short blocks, I think it was wagner. Does anyone know anything about these?

 

[MPNick]

Dont forget about ARP hardware..... need to beef up the connections.

Why? Has anyone had a main or head bolt fail? I am not picking on you here. I have seen other posts from other people talking about what needs to be replaced. Just like the fuel pumps needing to be replaced. We made a lot of power with a stock MSP pump. We still have more fuel pump left.

Going to a stronger main or head bolts can cause problems in a modern engine. It would be nice if we can get a list going on what fails on these cars and engines. Even axle, most of the time they fail due to wheel hop. If you stop the wheel hop do the axle still fail on a street car?

Just spending money and a brand name part does not always mean it is the better to go.

Thanks again

Later.........Nick

 

[KzA]

what failures can having this hardware cause?? I was under the impression that the only thing they could do it help, so better to be safe than sorry..

 

[MPNick]

what failures can having this hardware cause?? I was under the impression that the only thing they could do it help, so better to be safe than sorry..

The stock bolts are "torque to yeild bolts". They act more like rubber bands then bolts. They move with the block and head, grow and pull back.

In the old days of engine building you wanted the biggest and strongest bolt you could get you hands on. Then studs became the hot thing to use. They worked very well and because you had nuts on the end of the threads it save the block threads from getting worn out. These older type cast iron blocks and heads were very heavy and thick.

OEM casting became lighter in the late 70s to early 80s. Engine and car builders found that these new lighter casting would flex to the point of cause the cylinder bores and main bearing housing bores to be out of round. Even the cylinder decks would flex and cause head gaskets to fail. Then in the mid 80s the feds passed new laws[EPA] that would out law the use of asbestos in automotive gaskets. This was a big turning point in the way engines would be cast and what type of fastener would be used. While asbestos is not good for people it was one hell of a gasket. After you torque the head gasket it would get heat cycled for the first few hours. With asbestos all would be fine, the gasket did not compress to much and the torque held fine. With the new man made composite gasket the gasket would compress much more. It was so bad that the torque would start to go away and then the gasket would fail. The OEM car makers came up with torque to yeild bolts. The idea is as the gasket compress, the bolts would be stretched to begian with and now would pull back down and keep the torque.

With the EPA passing new laws demanding better fuel mileage along with cleaner tailpipe testing [CAFE], casting changed again. Fuel injection was now the standard for most cars. This meant the in order to take better control of the engine the PCM needed better feedback from the sensors. The first problem was not having even water temps from the block and cylinder head. Casting had to be made that would have better control of coolant flow from the block and head. With even water temp all around the block and cylinder head the PCM could take more control of what was going on. Aluminium cylinder heads became the standard in the 90s. This also brought the MLS head gasket. This gasket will not compress much at all. Now if you use the old type of bolts with this gasket the block would flex so bad that things would fail. In a bimetal engine, you have a cast iron block and a aluminium cylinder head. Guess what grows faster as the engine heats up? The head will slide a very small amount on the gasket as it grows. This is all taken into account when they build the engine. With our stock bolts we can let the head slide around and as the head grows and moves around the bolts have give in them. They are designed to have give, they need to have give. With a real strong ARP type bolt or stud you may take a big chance many things. With the stock bolts that seem to be doing their job very well you have a part that was designed and tested by Mazda for Mazda.

Thanks again

Later......Nick

 

[ddogg777]

Good stuff...I'll add a bit.
If bolts are torqued to their yeild point then anything more will produce permanent elongation and you will not have the "rubberband" effect. When you increase the power output of your engine and cause the the bolts to stretch passed this point, crapola....blown headgasket.

 

[MPNick]

Good stuff...I'll add a bit.
If bolts are torqued to their yeild point then anything more will produce permanent elongation and you will not have the "rubberband" effect. When you increase the power output of your engine and cause the the bolts to stretch passed this point, crapola....blown headgasket.

Does anyone know of any failed head bolts or main bolts? I fine it hard to understand how adding power will elongate head bolts or main bolts. You would have to lifting the cylinder head, unseating it from the gasket. Then you would lose clamping load. How many blown head gasket how people seen with the Protege? Detonation would cause tons of extra load on the head gasket. It can also cause the cylinder head to try to lift. With stock bolts you may have a failed gasket. With "better" bolts the load has no where to go. Now it goes south to the pistons, rods, crankshaft, upper rod bearings and lower main bearings. Things then start to break. It would be better to replace the head gasket then the short block.

These are all very rare and I am not sure if anyone is making the kind of power for this to happen. I guess my point is that people should not just buy parts for no reason at all.


Thanks again


Later.......Nick

 

[RyanJayG]

I know its not so critical in these engines due to total output, but where I work we use nothing but grade 8 bolts, and after we torque them one time, they are junk if they get removed. this is due to them stretching the first time we torque them... now bear in mind these bolts are quite large, in the neighborhood of 1 1/2" diameter fine thread bolts. we use 16 of them in an array to hold on a large slab of steel to a vibrating mass, so they must be strong.

long story short, it certainly wouldn't HURT to replace new studs, but like Nick said, in my opinion I dont think its neccisary on our engines.

 

[MPNick]

I know its not so critical in these engines due to total output, but where I work we use nothing but grade 8 bolts, and after we torque them one time, they are junk if they get removed. this is due to them stretching the first time we torque them... now bear in mind these bolts are quite large, in the neighborhood of 1 1/2" diameter fine thread bolts. we use 16 of them in an array to hold on a large slab of steel to a vibrating mass, so they must be strong.

long story short, it certainly wouldn't HURT to replace new studs, but like Nick said, in my opinion I dont think its neccisary on our engines.

On alot of the newer engines their bolts are also one time use.


Thanks again

Later.............Nick

 

[RyanJayG]

yeah, one more thing is that the bolts we torque are to the max strength of the bolts themselves, not the substance they are threaded into. for some people its hard to fathom that those big fsckers get around 4000 ft/lbs. As such, I dont think the studs in a protege engine are torqed anywhere near the max strength

 

[ddogg777]

Our bolts are torque to yield and should only be used once. I bought ARP studs because I am building the motor for big power:Oliver rods, Toga bearings, ARP mains. I also will be using a copper headgasket on an oringed block and thought that they would allow me to clamp better on that copper...
I might be wrong but I thought they were a good choice. I'm not an expert here, that's you're job!
Oh, and over the past year that I have been reading I can only remember 2-3 cases where the headgasket blew.

 

[Mental Addiction]

Right now we are running a special on Oliver Billet Rods for $650 shipped and CP Piston's and rings for $550 shipped.

 

[Bigg Tim]

Man this is good stuff, I had no idea about the bolts. I thought, probably like others, that stronger is always better and thus safer. Keep it coming guru's. MAM, any insight to add? What did you use on your motor?

 

[ddogg777]

His motor is still stock. He will be rebuilding the motor later this summer to work on a badder kit.

 

[Bigg Tim]

Oh. I assumed he put a built one in when he said it's back up. Oops, my bad.

 

[ddogg777]

He had a spare on hand for such an occasion.

 

[Mental Addiction]

I was in the proccess of building a built motor when my stocker let go.So I put in my $500 JunkYard terror.When our shipment of Oliver Rods and CP Piston's comes in we will be building a bullet proof motor.