Brake upgrade for P5 ?
- Thread starter crazyseb
- Start date
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
dont upgrade to msp brakes. they are only slightly bigger and you wont notice any difference. you need to go atleast 295mm+ front rotors to get the benefit out of the cash investment
twilightprotege said:
i assure you it makes a diff. (not as much as a $1500 brake kit) but my p5 stops much better than before and the brakes hold up much better on the track
here are some pics of the diff. in rotors and calipers
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twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
FC3s Boy said:
probably more so from the better rotors and pads than from larger rotors.
WRCprotege
Member
- :
- 03 Protege5 91 miata
iv done a track day with mine, with only upgraded pads and 215-45-16 azenis, which is alot of grip.. the braking system was able to lock them all up if you wanted at any time.. thats great braking force!! more force isnt really need, though larger will help if your running bigger heaver wheels, and or wide race tire (lots of grip) other than that it will help with heat if you have fade issues.. but i have a intermedit race pad thats good 750 with a high bit and good control and brake ducts i run when i do stuff i might run into some high heat stuff.. now sure the bigger brakes give a great advantage in stoping power, ther going to stop the car easyer and take the heat better ,with track days this will be a great advantage.. but street ther not really needed i think.. a good pad and rotor and your stoping to the full capability of your tires!!! bigger brakes wont help if the tires can only to x work.. an other very important thing to remember is the bigger brakes are great when needed but what they often dont tell is the full story,, with bigger brakes, its usally the front only and while its true that these provide more stoping force, the system in a whole dosnt improve really, the front and rear brakes work together as a team (brake bias) this brake bias is set from the factorys for safe stable braking, though not always stoping the car to its fullest capability.. most cars need more rear braking bias so that all four tires can be at thresh hold braking.. so bigger fronts, more stoping power, just makes the fronts work harder than the rears and your two front tires basicly stoping the car instead of all 4 .. a tire can only give x grip..lets say x =100 and lets say now that the rears are only doing 50% of the job because the fronts now have the adv, the rears simply can keep up, so now you braking hard and the fronts strat to give up, 100-100-50-50 =300grip.... no big brakes on the front and very high grip pads on the rear with and or brake bias proportoining valve and now we have 100-100-100-100,(mabey less rear like 80 to keep the car stable) but lets just say now we have 400 grip, a 25% increase in stopping power... thers much more technical set up to this and dos and donts..sometimes cars need bigger brakes.
i guess i point here is that the factorys can perform very well if you set them up right, and of course a bigger bakes system can out perform smaller ones IF set up right.. but unless you have traction to use this new stoping power, ther will be no improvment in stopping distance, only improved heat disapation, which isnt really need in our cars enless your doing some major stoppin over and over again...
i guess i point here is that the factorys can perform very well if you set them up right, and of course a bigger bakes system can out perform smaller ones IF set up right.. but unless you have traction to use this new stoping power, ther will be no improvment in stopping distance, only improved heat disapation, which isnt really need in our cars enless your doing some major stoppin over and over again...
WRCprotege said:
IDKWTF this guy is tlaking about with all the numbers but one thing I did understand and which all of you need to take to heart; It is unneccessary to upgrade your brake system. I have only upgraded my front pads to sport pads and the upgrade was more than adequate. I did a track day at laguna seca and I only felt fade at the end of the day. You people must understand that we do not have big muscle cars with antiquated brake design so performance parts like this and ITB's are really only applicable to those who want to waste their money and those modded out the yin yang
Just ask yourself this question. When will you get the maximum braking force? The maximum braking will come in at the point JUST before lockup (think ABS). Because of this, manufactures MUST ensure that the brakes that they put on a car CAN lock up. Therefore, unless there's some fault in your braking system, you should be able to lock your tires when braking hard (stock).
Of course, the ability to lock your tires/get max braking depends on one word: Friction. But there are several components of friction in a braking system:
1. The amount of friction between the rotor and pads, which is the whole idea of this thread. Friction between the rotors and pads in turn depends on several things. The force pushing the rotor and pads together, the surface area and surface roughness of the rotor and pads and operating temperature (brake fade).
2. The amount of friction between the tires and the road. If you drive on snow/ice, the friction is reduced and that's why you can lock the tires up easier. Friction between the tire and road again depends on several similar things. The way the tires "stick" to the road (can be viewed as surface roughness), the contact area (wider tires), the operating temperature and the force keeping the tire and road together. BUT the force keeping the tire and road together varies quite a bit when the car is in motion. If the car is in motion and the road is not PERFECTLY flat, the car will have up and down motion, which means the suspension must come into consideration because it keeps the tires to the road. Moreover, there is also weight transfer from back to front during braking, which translates to increased downforce in the front and reduced downforce in the rear.
OK. So in order for the manufacture to design a braking system that WILL allow the tires to lock up, the designer must consider all the factors in BOTH #1 and #2. So the designer must know things like the weight of the car, the tires that they will have on the car and the characteristics of the suspension system. But it's kinda hard to have EXACT figures of these, so they typically work with a range. And to ensure that they don't run into problems and liability, they typically overdesign it a little to add safety margins.
But you can see that there is a lot of factors that have to be considered and the braking system really is a SYSTEM. So if you hear some guy saying that changing something made a difference, you better ask him if he changed anything else before jumping in.
Of course, the ability to lock your tires/get max braking depends on one word: Friction. But there are several components of friction in a braking system:
1. The amount of friction between the rotor and pads, which is the whole idea of this thread. Friction between the rotors and pads in turn depends on several things. The force pushing the rotor and pads together, the surface area and surface roughness of the rotor and pads and operating temperature (brake fade).
2. The amount of friction between the tires and the road. If you drive on snow/ice, the friction is reduced and that's why you can lock the tires up easier. Friction between the tire and road again depends on several similar things. The way the tires "stick" to the road (can be viewed as surface roughness), the contact area (wider tires), the operating temperature and the force keeping the tire and road together. BUT the force keeping the tire and road together varies quite a bit when the car is in motion. If the car is in motion and the road is not PERFECTLY flat, the car will have up and down motion, which means the suspension must come into consideration because it keeps the tires to the road. Moreover, there is also weight transfer from back to front during braking, which translates to increased downforce in the front and reduced downforce in the rear.
OK. So in order for the manufacture to design a braking system that WILL allow the tires to lock up, the designer must consider all the factors in BOTH #1 and #2. So the designer must know things like the weight of the car, the tires that they will have on the car and the characteristics of the suspension system. But it's kinda hard to have EXACT figures of these, so they typically work with a range. And to ensure that they don't run into problems and liability, they typically overdesign it a little to add safety margins.
But you can see that there is a lot of factors that have to be considered and the braking system really is a SYSTEM. So if you hear some guy saying that changing something made a difference, you better ask him if he changed anything else before jumping in.
Last edited:
WRCprotege
Member
- :
- 03 Protege5 91 miata
thers alot going one here, alot to explain..to much to type..melicha the numbers was my shot at a fast simply put way of showing grip and how tire grip is your stopping power.. and how the braking systems as a whole have to work together in order to get max stopping distance, best use of tire grip... baiscly, simply adding bigger front brakes dosnt achive this, i was trying to show it, to make it easyer to get.. dosnt look like i did to good at that..lol
douggie tells more on the different things that make up the systems design what those systems have to deal with.. lowered cars with suspenison have less weight transfer, than stock, so those stock settings are not allowing the car to reach peek preformance in braking, as the rear wheels now need much more grip the braking system need to use this new found grip.. my car has a much higher grip and higher bite pads on the rear than the front pads to try to get the system closer to perfect balance.. this still perfect but a much improved over the stock set up..... big brakes arnt always needed for performance, sure thers the bling-damn factor, which we love... you have to balance the whole system and design that system for what you use it for.. track days are hard on factory systems,alot of knowage has to go into making these systems work under those condtions, which has be done buy myself and melicha8 with the factory sizesas well as many many others.. this is where most big brake kits come into use, under racing condtions is where you start to find the need these bigger systems..go to a good book store or seach the web and find good info on braking systems.. the knowage from this will help guide you to making your car brake faster and in the manner youd like it to..
douggie tells more on the different things that make up the systems design what those systems have to deal with.. lowered cars with suspenison have less weight transfer, than stock, so those stock settings are not allowing the car to reach peek preformance in braking, as the rear wheels now need much more grip the braking system need to use this new found grip.. my car has a much higher grip and higher bite pads on the rear than the front pads to try to get the system closer to perfect balance.. this still perfect but a much improved over the stock set up..... big brakes arnt always needed for performance, sure thers the bling-damn factor, which we love... you have to balance the whole system and design that system for what you use it for.. track days are hard on factory systems,alot of knowage has to go into making these systems work under those condtions, which has be done buy myself and melicha8 with the factory sizesas well as many many others.. this is where most big brake kits come into use, under racing condtions is where you start to find the need these bigger systems..go to a good book store or seach the web and find good info on braking systems.. the knowage from this will help guide you to making your car brake faster and in the manner youd like it to..
