Best strut/$$$ option for MSP
- Thread starter livelyjay
- Start date
Jeff@Tri-Point
Member
Wow, your using a 6" spring with only a 400lbs spring? Have you used it at the track? I know my car coil binded with that setup with 571lbs spring and a p5 front bar, I'm not sure if it did it with the MSP Front bar.
8" springs in the rear, or all around?
I will measure it again today, but I'm going to say Benji has it correct at 7". No coil bind with the 350# up front though.
All round.
AWR - 7" 350 F / 7" 450 R
Are they worth the price? yes
Do they have some small issues? yes, such as the rear camber issues, my rear sway bar tabs breaking off, and the strut insert being about 1/4" shorter than the carrier in the rear causes a horrible amount of clunk (you thought the sway bar was bad?) I had to shim the rear inserts to keep them from moving inside the carrier.
Would I buy them again? yes
BTW, the price can quickly go up over $2k with different valvings and such.
I don't regret going with the bilsteins at all. I have no need for adjustables in autocross. It is stiff, but still my daily driver.
I would buy a used set if you can find them, or just wait and buy them when you can afford them.
Britt
Are they worth the price? yes
Do they have some small issues? yes, such as the rear camber issues, my rear sway bar tabs breaking off, and the strut insert being about 1/4" shorter than the carrier in the rear causes a horrible amount of clunk (you thought the sway bar was bad?) I had to shim the rear inserts to keep them from moving inside the carrier.
Would I buy them again? yes
BTW, the price can quickly go up over $2k with different valvings and such.
I don't regret going with the bilsteins at all. I have no need for adjustables in autocross. It is stiff, but still my daily driver.
I would buy a used set if you can find them, or just wait and buy them when you can afford them.
Britt
Thanks for the input Britt. Did AWR correct the issue with the tab breaking off, or did you just have to get it welded? Did the tab break with AWR end links, or were they stock end links?
I'm still torn between new BC and used AWR. New BC I can get the spring rates I want out of the box, the AWR used I would be buying new springs for all four corners (extra $240 plus shipping). I don't know, maybe I could buy the used AWRs, use them for a season with the springs they come with (10" 275F, 10" 325R) and get new springs for 2010. Rogue really liked the BC when compared to Tein and K-Sport, so it might be a nice starting platform for me.
Jeff@Tri-Point
Member
When you are referring to used AWR's you aren't really specifying what you are getting... The one's that will come with the Koni's or the Bilsteins?
As Britt stated, different valvings are going to cost more with the Bilsteins, so if the AWR's did come with Koni, I would strongly recommend that.
In regards to new springs, you can go on the sccaforums and find used springs for fairly cheap.
Like I stated earlier, the ideal setup would be to use 7" all the way around.
Front Setup
8" Spring will get your spring perch all the way down to the bottom by the sway bar mount, so you can't lower the car anymore.
7" Spring will get your spring perch to the middle of the coilover sleeve with a lot of room to go up and down
6" Spring will get you towards the top of the spring perch and you have to be cautious of coil binding in my opinnion.
Rear Setup
8" Spring will sit too low if you use a high offset wheel similar to stock
7" Spring will sit in the middle, high enough for wheel clearance (if that were to be an issue)
6" Spring will sit at the top of the coilover sleeve not allowing you to raise the ride height.
With the 8" spring, it's a pain in the ass (Front and Rear) to change springs when you have to pull that Koni rod just an inch (not a big deal if you only do it once, but when your changing springs 10x a year or more, it's a big deal for me) just so you can bolt in your struts to the camber plates.
Jeff@Tri-Point
Member
Honestly, I don't know how the bilsteins are valved, without dynographs and adjustment, you are restricted to a certain spring rate, I won't know though what it is.
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I have the Bilstein's.
I'm not sure if they're 10" long. I will have to check the length.
After riding in sm76's car over a year ago, which had similar spring rates, I would say the Bilstein's are valved pretty stiff. His car felt much more compliant than mine.
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Correction to the above, I have 8" springs. Been awhile since I've thought about it.
I was able to get the car low enough with the 10" springs, however there was not enough room to run the 235s/245s tires. fit fine with my 215 street tires. I went to the 8" just for tire clearance. As Jeff said, a 6" would just bee too short, the Protege has quite a bit of suspension travel. A 7" would probably be okay, but the amount of adjustability on Jeff's setup is likely different than on the AWRs.
The Bilsteins are valved very stiff, as with most Bilsteins. So much so that I actually just bough a couple of sets of stofter springs to expeiment with. There are 2 schools of thought, soft springs/stiff valving and then stiff springs/soft valving. I have always run stiff valving and softer springs, but this is my first fwd car that I've done a lot of work on and raced so we'll see how that works out.
Britt
I was able to get the car low enough with the 10" springs, however there was not enough room to run the 235s/245s tires. fit fine with my 215 street tires. I went to the 8" just for tire clearance. As Jeff said, a 6" would just bee too short, the Protege has quite a bit of suspension travel. A 7" would probably be okay, but the amount of adjustability on Jeff's setup is likely different than on the AWRs.
The Bilsteins are valved very stiff, as with most Bilsteins. So much so that I actually just bough a couple of sets of stofter springs to expeiment with. There are 2 schools of thought, soft springs/stiff valving and then stiff springs/soft valving. I have always run stiff valving and softer springs, but this is my first fwd car that I've done a lot of work on and raced so we'll see how that works out.
Britt
I would get them and run them with those rates and see how you like it. There is a certain amount of a relationship between springs and valving, but you're more valving the struts to the car, not to the spring. Valving Bilsteins is not terrible expensive, companies like Truechoice does it, and they can convert them to double adjustable if you really want.
Mine were custom valved but Tony will not give me specs on them. I plan to put them on the dyno here soon to see what the revalving was. I know what the insert's original applications were. All Tony's are custom valved, but mine were different from his regularly custom stuff.
Britt
Mine were custom valved but Tony will not give me specs on them. I plan to put them on the dyno here soon to see what the revalving was. I know what the insert's original applications were. All Tony's are custom valved, but mine were different from his regularly custom stuff.
Britt
Britt, do you ever have troubles with the 8" spring becoming unseated when the rear is in the air (either 3 wheeling or just when changing tires)? I'm trying helper springs with them right now but they just aren't working right. I was contemplating going to the 10" spring but was worried about tire clearance in the rear (although a 225/50/15 will be easier to fit than yours)
FWIW, I have not had my Bilsteins revalved. The previous owner ran 450/350, and now I am running 450/600.
I also had the bad clunking problem Britt had. Apparently it happened in earlier Bilstein/AWR coilovers. I had mine fixed with a shim as well, cost $75 and a little down time. You may want to ask about that.
FWIW, I have not had my Bilsteins revalved. The previous owner ran 450/350, and now I am running 450/600.
I also had the bad clunking problem Britt had. Apparently it happened in earlier Bilstein/AWR coilovers. I had mine fixed with a shim as well, cost $75 and a little down time. You may want to ask about that.
Not worried about the clunking, only the valving. Since Mallard had one of the first sets I am betting he had the issue too. I have seen people use duct tape around strut bodies when installing GC sleeves to prevent them from clunking, wouldn't that work for the inserts as well?
Instead of just asking people here, I'm going to contact Tony at AWR and see what he has to say about the valving.
Instead of just asking people here, I'm going to contact Tony at AWR and see what he has to say about the valving.
I can confirm the stiffer Bilstein valving. Jas00X's car (Bilstein) felt a lot more rigid than my car (Koni). It didn't feel any different driving aggressively, but just around paddock and around town you could tell they were stiffer. We both run identical setups otherwise.
Britt says Tony does custom valving to the Bilsteins, so they may be revalved for the lighter springs. Any ways, I contacted Tony with Mallard's information and he's going to check the paperwork to see what was in the package. Now I just have to wait for the info.
Jeff@Tri-Point
Member
I doubt you are unloading the spring unless your not running a rear bar. Have you lifted one of the rear tires? If so, does the spring come loose? That will give you a good idea if you are unloading the spring.
