Automobile Mag - compares 2010 MS3 to base model

[gonerogue]

there hope that make more sesne.

He was correcting the guy who quoted you, who was saying that the author of the article is correct.

 

[Riaf28]

I've read that a lot of magazine cars have LSDs that are shot due to the abuse the cars receive. This could lead to the horrible torque steer that a lot of mags refer to.
I have an 08 MS3 and I've driven it hard with and without DSC on and never experienced crazy torque steer.

 

[squidmotion]

torque steer, torque steer...BLA BLA BLA.....EVERY front wheel drive car exhibits torque steer to some degree on another.... the MS3 is no different.

these guys are idiots. and if you base what you spend your hard earned money on what some journalism major has to say about a particular car, good luck to you!

while these guys were eating tofu, and writing for the high school year book, i was out wrenching on cars, actually learning how things are engineered...

call me a 'boy racer', and i'll probably stomp you in the ground like a tent stake.....


this statement makes absolutely no sense:

"Speed 3 is faster, but a car's ability to accelerate is only one small piece of the puzzle. And in the case of the Speed, it comes at too great a cost to the rest of the driving experience".... what? i guess that it being a better handling car, better braking, better shifting, better looking car makes it worse as well...


"..... (the regular MZ3) has more than enough power to make for a fun runabout".... WTF? i'm not looking for a 'fun runabout'..... i'm looking for a bruiser in a plain package. that can carry a few packages.

i guess the speed3 is a bit too 'manly' for them....





there, how many people did i offend?

 

[SRTie4k]

the guy that wrote the article is fing stupid he claims the speed 3 has 255/40 tires on it.
Oh yeah the claims this car has Turbo Lag, WTF is he talking about, boost comes fast in this car.

Can anyone really think of another car that has boost as fast as this one does.

I mean really, go f yourself automobile mag

Apparently you've never driven another turbo car. A VW fully spools at ~2800, an SRT-4 fully spools at 3000, etc.

The MS3 in stock form doesn't fully spool until 4000. Even with an intake, the stock boost controller does a number on the car and doesn't let the turbo fully spool until ~3500.

The MS3 definitely does have some turbo lag, considering how small the stock turbo really is.

 

[oaklandopen]

The MS3 definitely does have some turbo lag, considering how small the stock turbo really is.

but that's kind of natural for any turbo car, unless you have a twin turbo setup (or quad turbo, thank you bugatti) so as to reduce the lagging feel and still keep good top end power

small turbo = fast spool = power down low = loses oomph up high

big turbo = slow spool = power up high = lag galore

funny turbo lag vid


and the whole torque steer debate has less to do with power than it does with the drivetrain layout. the half shafts on the ms3 are pretty damn thick and when mated to an LSD i think the tq steer is managed very well. and if one drives within the limits of the tires anyway (meaning giving it only enough throttle to stay under the limits of wheel spin) i think that tq steer is almost non-existant. i know that i still can't tell which way this car tq steers

but if you have skinny half shafts you can get worse tq steer from a lower power car. my dad was telling me how his old 93 maxima used to pull wayyyy off to one side even when it only had like 190 hp

 

[MSMS3]

The MS3 in stock form doesn't fully spool until 4000. Even with an intake, the stock boost controller does a number on the car and doesn't let the turbo fully spool until ~3500.

I must respectfully disagree. Either my boost gauge is wrong or I must have the only MS3 that will get boost spikes in high gear at 60 mph (2400 rpm) when going WOT.

Even before adding the dp/rp and with simple intake only, that gauge swings hard right at anything above 2400-2500 rpm. And in lower gears, expecially 3-4-5 it is positively instantaneous.

This engine makes huge torque down low. It takes boost to do this. However the power band for hp is best between 4,000 and 5,500 rpm. That is true. This is more a function of cam profile, timing, injector pulse and other factors, plus the full boost already there. But that does not mean the turbo has not fully spooled up earlier. Watch the gauge. In any gear above second, I get full boost very early.

Maybe the '10 model is more sluggish coming up on boost? I doubt it.

 

[MS3Zoom24]

Apparently you've never driven another turbo car. A VW fully spools at ~2800, an SRT-4 fully spools at 3000, etc.

The MS3 in stock form doesn't fully spool until 4000. Even with an intake, the stock boost controller does a number on the car and doesn't let the turbo fully spool until ~3500.

The MS3 definitely does have some turbo lag, considering how small the stock turbo really is.

yeah i have to respectfully disagree, just like MSMS3 says even before i did my mods it hit full boost by right about 2900-3100 abouts.

now with AP1+ i hit full in about 2800 if i wanted (which i tuned out)

I must respectfully disagree. Either my boost gauge is wrong or I must have the only MS3 that will get boost spikes in high gear at 60 mph (2400 rpm) when going WOT.

Even before adding the dp/rp and with simple intake only, that gauge swings hard right at anything above 2400-2500 rpm. And in lower gears, expecially 3-4-5 it is positively instantaneous.

This engine makes huge torque down low. It takes boost to do this. However the power band for hp is best between 4,000 and 5,500 rpm.
Maybe the '10 model is more sluggish coming up on boost? I doubt it.

Agreed!!!

 

[eg6motion]

Bias aside, I suspect that the reviewer isn't a very good driver, or doesn't handle performance very well. He seems more inclined to drive any car that only has a hint of sportyness instead of something that is sporty. Also, the 1/4 test is simply horrible, 14.9... Perhaps the LSD is burnt out, or he just can't drive.

 

[zx2man]

Im not gonna attack anyones statements. Yes the MS3 has turbo lag..Its very slight and compared to "most" turbo cars..its pretty dam good. As for the point of this article..regarding torque steer..I think anytime you go hey Im gonna buy a fwd car that weights around 3100-3200 lb that has 280lb of torque you prabaly need to expect some dam torque steer..Ive dricen plenty of v6 altimas and maximas..heck my 130 hp 2500lb ford zx2 would have some torque steer on hard driving..Most fwd cars that have any type of power will exhibit torque steer..so considering the specs of the ms3..I think it does very very well and I dont have any complaints. Just amazes me that the magazine drivers made a big deal about it.....maybe they wanted a more gentle Camry type of feel..I dont know..or stupid enough to think its gonna drive like a awd platform ie sti-evo..doubt it. Maybe thier arm strengh hasnt changed since 6th grade. But I think we can ALL agree that for a 263 hp 280 lb torque hatchback car under 25 grand..it drives pretty ****** good!(drinks)

 

[bani]

automobile mag has always been biased against the ms3. the last comparo they did they deliberately printed up misleading dyno graphs which made the ms3 look worse and the gti look better. only when you rescaled the graphs to defeat their dishonesty and overlaid them was the truth revealed.

 

[SRTie4k]

I must respectfully disagree. Either my boost gauge is wrong or I must have the only MS3 that will get boost spikes in high gear at 60 mph (2400 rpm) when going WOT.

Even before adding the dp/rp and with simple intake only, that gauge swings hard right at anything above 2400-2500 rpm. And in lower gears, expecially 3-4-5 it is positively instantaneous.

This engine makes huge torque down low. It takes boost to do this. However the power band for hp is best between 4,000 and 5,500 rpm. That is true. This is more a function of cam profile, timing, injector pulse and other factors, plus the full boost already there. But that does not mean the turbo has not fully spooled up earlier. Watch the gauge. In any gear above second, I get full boost very early.

Maybe the '10 model is more sluggish coming up on boost? I doubt it.

I don't have a boost gauge, but there is definitely a lack of power between 3000 and 4000RPM in 3rd gear on a turbo the size of this K04 on a stock MS3. It's obviously not timing related since replacing the stock airbox with an intake makes power delivery 500RPM sooner, and a test pipe 200-300RPM sooner than that.

I'd be willing to bet the reason for the 4000RPM power delivery in of a stock MS3 in 3rd gear is forced through the boost solenoids. You can fully spool a turbo that size at probably 2800RPM, but if your solenoids bleed it off until 4000, it will feel like turbo lag.

What happens on your boost gauge with the car completely stock? Does it spike to, say, 16psi at 2800RPM, then drop and rise again? Or does it remain constant where it spikes?

 

[SallySpeed3]

Another article that pisses me off

http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/112_1001_2010_motor_trend_car_of_the_year_contenders_and_finalists/2010_mazda3.html

Came across this article while waiting to get my hair cut the other day. Not that I think the new mazdaspeed3 should be rated the best car out there, but who the hell were the people driving these cars? The speed3 rated 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, and the GTI was rated 0-60 in 5.8 seconds. Are you kidding? They also go on to say that the weakness in Mazdas line up is the Speed simply because of torque-steer. I don't know exactly where I was going with this post, but just bothers me that the new comparison tests between the Speed and GTI have the GTI winning even though in every performance category the speed wins hands down.

 

[MS3Zoom24]

I don't have a boost gauge, but there is definitely a lack of power between 3000 and 4000RPM in 3rd gear on a turbo the size of this K04 on a stock MS3. It's obviously not timing related since replacing the stock airbox with an intake makes power delivery 500RPM sooner, and a test pipe 200-300RPM sooner than that.

I'd be willing to bet the reason for the 4000RPM power delivery in of a stock MS3 in 3rd gear is forced through the boost solenoids. You can fully spool a turbo that size at probably 2800RPM, but if your solenoids bleed it off until 4000, it will feel like turbo lag.

What happens on your boost gauge with the car completely stock? Does it spike to, say, 16psi at 2800RPM, then drop and rise again? Or does it remain constant where it spikes?

I have an AP, CAI, BPV, TMIC- so maybe that has something to do with it but typically I will slowly accelerate form 2.5k to WOT by 3k and i will be at full boost by then around 18.3to17.8 depending on the pull, gradually decreasing to 16 by 6k.

never had a gauge stock, or even stock for 1kmiles. so i can not tell you about that info

 

[MSMS3]

My boost gauge went in at the time of my dp/rp. I did already have the CAI, but I don't recall there being a sense that boost came on earlier in 3rd and above with the intake, it simply came on harder all across the band. But I did not have a way to measure it then.

 

[SRTie4k]

My boost gauge went in at the time of my dp/rp. I did already have the CAI, but I don't recall there being a sense that boost came on earlier in 3rd and above with the intake, it simply came on harder all across the band. But I did not have a way to measure it then.

Like I said, I'm interested to see how the car acts in stock form. Owning an SRT-4 prior to this car, I couldn't help but feel like power didn't really kick in until 4000RPM when I first bought the car. Compare the butt feeling of power to that of an SRT-4 and it feels like turbo lag. I felt the same thing that the reviewer was referring to when I got my MS3, before I modded it.

 

[coololddude]

The girly-man testers complain about Torque-Steer in a Mini-Cooper!! I don't think the Mini even has an Engine!!!

 

[gonerogue]

Like I said, I'm interested to see how the car acts in stock form. Owning an SRT-4 prior to this car, I couldn't help but feel like power didn't really kick in until 4000RPM when I first bought the car. Compare the butt feeling of power to that of an SRT-4 and it feels like turbo lag. I felt the same thing that the reviewer was referring to when I got my MS3, before I modded it.

Full torque is rated 280 lb/ft at 3000 RPM, not sure I understand where you are coming from.

I have not driven an SRT-4, but I can't say I've experienced the same lag that you're talking about. I went searching for some answers, but all I could really come up with is an old post on the Cobb forums that shows the relative boost measured (green line): http://www.cobbforums.com/forums/sh...riving-impressions-for-the-2007-MAZDASPEED-3& . From that test, there was no indication that boost lagged between 3000 and 4000 RPM.

 

[60181]

Bias aside, I suspect that the reviewer isn't a very good driver, or doesn't handle performance very well. He seems more inclined to drive any car that only has a hint of sportyness instead of something that is sporty. Also, the 1/4 test is simply horrible, 14.9... Perhaps the LSD is burnt out, or he just can't drive.

14.9 is either a complete mis-shift....or two miss gears but either way, he's a completely incompetent driver.

 

[liquidflem]

Actually, I am yet to experience torque steer. I think torque steer exist in 2nd gear when you floor it. I don't floor it in 2nd I never have there just no need for it. Part throttle is fast enough to get the job done. Plus I drive with DSC on. I think torque steer on these cars is overhyped.

If you really push the car at high boost on windy roads you will experience torque steer, though i agree it's completely manageable, i mean all it requires is a firm grip of the wheel. Plus, you get used to expecting it.

14.9 is either a complete mis-shift....or two miss gears but either way, he's a completely incompetent driver.

Tons of wheel spin will do this