Anyone with alignment experience?

[Silver Ecstasy]

A couple weeks ago, when the weather was still warm, I was at a dead stop at an intersection, but atleast 10 cars back. The right lane was open, so I crept out into the right lane and fell into a pretty nasty pothole which made me cringe real bad. After that, I noticed the car would pull to the right.

I took it to the dealership and had them check the alignment. The guy said the rear was toed out real bad, so he toed it back in, and when he did that, it made the left front toe out, so he brought that within specs. Here are the numbers:

* = degrees
BEFORE

LEFT FRONT \\ // RIGHT FRONT
-1.0* [[Camber -2.0*/ 0.1*]] -0.8*
3.4* [[Caster 2.1* / 4.1*]] 3.1*
0.04* [[Toe -0.09* / 0.27*]] 0.05*

LEFT REAR \\ //RIGHT REAR
-2.2* [[Camber -2.7* / -0.7*]] -1.6*
0.18* [[Toe -0.09* / 0.27*]] 0.29*

AFTER

LEFT FRONT \\ //RIGHT FRONT
-0.9* [[Camber -2.0* / 0.1*]] -0.9*
3.4* [[Caster 2.1* / 4.1*]] 3.1*
0.14* [[Toe -0.09* / 0.27*]] 0.11*

LEFT REAR \\ //RIGHT REAR[/I]
-1.9* [[Camber -2.7* / -0.7*]] -1.5*
0.11* [[Toe -0.09* / 0.27*]] 0.08*

 

[bacarl]

Which tire(s) went through the pothole? Is your question why adjusting rear toe affected front toe?

I assume the "Before" numbers are the initial readings, since right rear toe is out of spec, and "After" is once he'd corrected both rear toe and front toe, since everything is back in spec - is that right? There's no measurement of when the left front toe was out of spec?

At any rate, the after numbers are spot on. Does the car track straight now?

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

I hit the right front and rear on the pothole. But the rear is what was toed out so bad.

The car tracks straight but seems to be dog-walking almost.

Yeah, so why did he adjust the left front toe once he adjusted the right rear?

 

[bacarl]

Is there anything else on your alignment sheet, like Total Toe or Thrust Angle?

Thrust angle is what can make the car dog-track. It's the difference between the car's centerline and the direction the rear tires are pointing (the direction perpendicular to the rear total toe). So if your rear total toe is excessive one way or the other, the rear of the car isn't pointing quite the same direction as the front so the car dog-tracks.

I can't be sure of why he changed the front after the rear... I know that Hunter aligners are extremely sensitive, and while changing one corner doesn't physically affect another, the machine might pick up a different reading. Or, because the rear total toe changed when he tweaked the right corner, he may have tweaked the front to improve thrust angle. Except that doesn't make much sense if it now feels like the car dog-tracks.

 

[UHATEIT]

i personally want to know how to read mine off ht print out from the alignment shop. whats with the [[?]] is that the recommended area to be within to be in spec? Just so I can tell how close mine are to being in our out of spec as the shop didnt charge me or do the alignment or make changes as everything was in the GREEN, so I wanted to know HOW MUCH in spec I am exactly. Thanks for the imput

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

According to the Hunter Alignment Specs on the machine at work here:

'07-08 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3

Front
Camber: -057' 1 (-0.95 1.0)
Toe: -006' 011' (-0.10 0.18)
Caster: 308' 1 (3.13 1.0)

Rear
Camber: -147' 1 (-1.75 1.0)
Toe: -006' 011' (-0.10 0.18)

As far as adjusting the L/Front toe, if he adjusted the L/Front Camber (Which he may have, or it may just be the machine bouncing between -0.9 & -1.0), changing camber can affect toe.

Just asking, but is the toe negative or positive on the printout he gave you? The spec (according to Hunter) is slightly negative, but he's got them slightly positive (according to what you posted).

I'm curious why he'd leave toe uneven side to side; ideally he should try to get them to match as much as possible, to keep it driving straight.

 

[Russm]

Go to a shop that has a John Beam 3D aligner and they can show you liVe where you are and watch adjustments, it will give a much better look at your cars alignment and many other aspects of your wheel and tire geometry.. When damage may occur in one area from excesive forc our cars are like a whip that can allow for damage , bad setings on the opisite end of where the hit took place. ask an good frame man if you get a hit in the right rear they will also LOOK IN THE LEFT FRONT FOR DAMAGE, SAME CAN GO FOR ALIGNMENT.

 

[joe's_speed3]

I hit the right front and rear on the pothole. But the rear is what was toed out so bad.

The car tracks straight but seems to be dog-walking almost.

Yeah, so why did he adjust the left front toe once he adjusted the right rear?

Ok well you know what cause your alignment to go out. Now each wheel has a slight affect on each other. Most important is that the rear affects the front.

thats why some cars get the dog track affect.

i personally want to know how to read mine off ht print out from the alignment shop. whats with the [[?]] is that the recommended area to be within to be in spec? Just so I can tell how close mine are to being in our out of spec as the shop didnt charge me or do the alignment or make changes as everything was in the GREEN, so I wanted to know HOW MUCH in spec I am exactly. Thanks for the imput

the [[?]] does mean "spec range". as long as your specs are withing these areas your tecnically ok. however alignment can still be off if from left to right sides are not equal or at least close.

best results will be caster/camber within 0.4* of each other left to right

and toe within 0.04* from left to right. any more than that and you chance car pulling or crooked steering wheel.

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

Yeah the [[]] is the spec range.

He told me my rear toe was positive, and brought it back in. Does that make sense?

I tried making an appointment to have them re-do the alignment, but I may just go to another dealer or just cough up the money and have it done right at a tire shop or somewhere that can ******* handle this..

Belle Tire, are they any good for this?

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Yes, the toe should be slightly negative (leading edge of the wheel should be closer together side-to-side than the trailing edge), to keep it going straight ahead - but from what I'm looking at, he left them positive (looks like out of spec still, unless that's as far as he could adjust it and something's tweaked).

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

****. Okay, thanks for the head's up. Any suggestions on where I should go to get this checked out? I doubt I should go back to the same dealership. Maybe I could try the other local dealership?

 

[mazdaspeedster3]

Go to Harolds Frame shop on Grand River in Novi, just West of Novi Rd. They are awesome and extremely reputable.

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

Thanks Bill!

 

[bacarl]

Whoa whoa... Mike, what are you thinking is out of spec? According to the After numbers, everything is in.

Don't think that left/right individual toe should be negative, or postive, as a rule. It depends on what you're looking for from the car. Toe out gives faster steering response by sacrificing straight line stability; toe in therefore increases stability by sacrificing response. I have a little toe in dialed in on my car because it was too twitchy with my wheels/tires, but then again my buddy has crazy toe out dialed in on his autox Miata to maximize steering response. If you don't have a preference, then it's just important that everything be in spec, which yours is. Just because someone on here says it should be negative or positive as a rule doesn't mean you have to run out and get it changed. In this case, ThreeEdgedSword is actually incorrect...

Yes, the toe should be slightly negative (leading edge of the wheel should be closer together side-to-side than the trailing edge), to keep it going straight ahead - but from what I'm looking at, he left them positive (looks like out of spec still, unless that's as far as he could adjust it and something's tweaked).

...because first of all, negative toe is actually toe out, meaning the leading edge is farther apart than the trailing edge. So your front wheels are toed in, because they're positive. Not to mention that it doesn't matter what the individual toe readings are to keep the car going straight ahead (they can be positive or negative; in or out), it's the Total Toe reading that should be minimized to keep the car from pulling.

 

[bacarl]

I see part of the confusion... the specs that Silver posted presumably from the dealer sheet are different from ThreeEdgedSword's Hunter specs. The caster and camber are the same, but toe is kinda opposite.

Silver's range is -0.09 / 0.27 for front and rear, and his measured numbers are within that spec. TES's Hunter numbers are -0.10 0.18, or -0.28 / 0.08, so Silver's measured numbers are outside of that spec - they're too positive, meaning too much toe in. Either there's a typo somewhere, or some specs are wrong, or Silver's rear toe is out of spec and his fronts are on the ragged edge.

I tend to think that the dealer specs are right because they specify more positive toe, which is toe in, which increases stability, which is "safer". Just like passenger cars are tuned to understeer because it's safer that way.

Then again, I could be reading the Hunter specs wrong, because I see stuff like -006' which is zero degrees, six minutes (like a latitude reading) and I have no idea how that relates to alignment. I can only wrap my head around straight degrees.

 

[Silver Ecstasy]

Do you want me to repost it better bacarl?

When I researched the Toe #'s, the higher the # +, the further out the wheels point. The smaller the Toe # is, the more they point in.

And that's exactly what the tech explained. With my right rear Toe being 0.29*, it was pointing way outward, so he toed it back in.

 

[bacarl]

Maybe we're just using different sign conventions. Here's where I get my info:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4

an axle is said to have positive toe-in when imaginary lines running through the centerlines of the tires intersect in front of the vehicle and have negative toe-out when they diverge.

When toe is zero, the wheels point exactly straight ahead.