Anyone street tune using the CP-E
- Thread starter SpdFreak
- Start date
Well imma have to kick his ass, its a good thing i work right above him in sales
Yeah its a wideband. Not too many cars come with a wideband so we're pretty fortunate. I monitor it with the DashHawk. The narrowband is after the cats just to make sure they're working.
WTF indeed. (hand) LOL!
udontknowjack
Member
- :
- mazda mazdaspeed3
is it something cpe is working on to get the first gen unit to pick up that signal later on?
The dashhawk has a conversion factor built into it to show a represented wideband. Last I heard that didn't even work yet. Did you update your dashhawk over the net? The stock sensor does not read like a wideband so its really a guess if its right on the money or fast enough to show the true a/f ratio. As for CP-E standback you can tune your car so its worth its weight in gold compaired to just seeing your wideband a/f ratio on the dashhawk while you throw hard parts at your car.
Ummm... it outputs lambda which is just 14.7 x AFR. So the conversion is REALLY simple. Most AFR sensor/controllers out there can switch from Lambda to AFR. It takes a microsecond to do the multiplication. The wideband in our cars works just like any other wideband does. It outputs a current which is converted by the controller (or ECU in this case) into either lambda or AFR. So I wouldn't say its "a guess if its right on the money or fast enough to show the true a/f ratio." I even logged it during a dyno run and my AFR readings were dead on with what the shops wideband was reading. And yes, the latest firmware update fixes the AFR readings. So now you can monitor AFR, Lambda, or both
And no one is comparing the DH with the Standback. Of course its better to tune than to just monitor. It just that if the DH can read AFR from our stock wideband, then why can't the Standback? It would save tuners a few hundred bucks not having to buy another wideband.
ugh youre telling me a dash hawk is more reliable than a wideband? Ugh, ok. Cat temps arent going tell you a thing like a real EGT temp gauge will and ill take the corrected lambada reading from the aftermarket bosch 5 wire sensor over the stock mazda thats converted by MSD. Call me an idiot (boom03)
And yes, if you pull fuel out of a really rich car, youre going to make some monster power. However, keep those AFR's below 12.0 if youre not running 93+ fuel or methanol guys. I dont want to see you blow your cars up.
Heres why I said that.
4-10-2007 Jordan from CP-E "Unfortunately it can't, and I'm sorry to say that I doubt any tuner in the near future will be able to either. I, like many others, were under the assumption that you could just tap a wire on the WBO2, sense a voltage, and convert the signal to indicate an air/fuel ratio. The problem is that unlike narrowband O2's, wideband O2's use current to indicate the air/fuel ratio. You measure current because the sensor is basically a narrowband O2 with an ion pump attached to it. As oxygen in the mixture increases, the current going to the ion pump decreases, and the opposite is true for a rich mixture.
This is a problem because you can't sense the current within a circuit without disrupting the circuit itself. In other words, the feedback loop attached to the ion pump would be skewed, and the readings would no longer be valid once you start altering the circuit. So there is a real hurdle there.
Secondly, even if you're slick enough to sense the current to the ion pump without disrupting the circuit, you still need to make sense of the output, and how the feedback loop is controlling the pump. One may expect the sensor output with respect to air/fuel ratio to be linear, but that's almost never the case. And the signal is also probably pulse-width modulated, which makes the output even more confusing.
So it is possible, but the task isn't striaghtforward by any means. You're much better of just buying an aftermarket wideband while we try to make more sense of this car. Since our Standback will only accept sensor signals from our wideband (which is unfortauntely unavailable at the moment) we'll be offering an analog hub which will accept signals from any analog sensor. The neat thing is that it'll integrate the datalogs into one file. But you can go crazy and get sensors to log things like suspension travel, acceleration, exhaust gas temperature, the uses are endless, which makes the hub a pretty neat addition"
Cat temps are pointless to moniter. The cat is a catalyst so its temp increases with more fuel. The cat also hold heat so you would need to be way out for a few seconds before that temperature showed a change most likely. It would seem that you would never know the differance of high cat temps from lean or rich conditions.
Yeah man I know about this stuff and he is speaking greek to me. I was only going on his word at the time. The main differance is that the Dash Hawk is using the diag connector to ask the ecu what going on not tapping into the circuit as a standback does. If I hadn't spent the money on the wideband I would just get the dash hawk for simplicity.
Thanks for the verbage from Jordan. I can appreciate the difficulties in trying to read out the current signal from the WB. But why can't the standback communicate to the ECU through the CAN-Bus and "ask" for the Lambda reading in the same way the DH can? Is it not possible for the Standback to communicate over the CAN through the harness instead of the OBDII port? I have no idea what type of signals it can read through the harness
www.cp-e.com
Member
Thanks for the verbage from Jordan. I can appreciate the difficulties in trying to read out the current signal from the WB. But why can't the standback communicate to the ECU through the CAN-Bus and "ask" for the Lambda reading in the same way the DH can? Is it not possible for the Standback to communicate over the CAN through the harness instead of the OBDII port? I have no idea what type of signals it can read through the harness
Sorry I got to this post so late! I've been swamped and haven't been on the boards as much lately, I apologize.
I've been trying to get more information about using the Dash Hawk to indicate your AFR, and my source for info has been our electrical engineer. He is incredibly knowledgeable when it comes to oxygen sensors (hell, he single handedly designed our wideband controller), and he works with CANbus a lot too. I asked him about this very topic not long ago, and aside from the issues mentioned above, he added that we don't know how often the AFR values are refreshed, nor do we know how accurate it is. In other words, how many data points were used to calibrate the stock wideband? Two? Three? Ten? Is it refreshed every second, or ten times a second? Both of these points are incredibly important, and they just add to the laundry list of things required to get straight in order to use the stock wideband. I know its tempting to want to use the stock wideband, but it just isn't as straightforward or desirable as it sounds. In fact, we have no plans to use the stock wideband, ever. If you're going to be using a wideband to tune your car, we'd prefer that you use an aftermarket unit with a known calibration and quick sample rate.
Why do other tuners use stock widebands? Well, even though they can doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea. Furthermore, I imagine the tuners that do use the wideband for feedback are FLASH tuners, and not piggybacks. We will be offering wideband integration, but it'll come in the form of our analog sensor hub, which is nearing completion last I heard. You will even be able to display your live AFR on the Real-Time graphs in the Standback software.
The display refresh rate is around 3-4 times per second I would say. The datalog sample rate is around 4-5 samples/second on our cars. I wish it was a little faster and apparently on some cars its around 20-30 samples/second. Something to do with our ECUs being 32bit or something. But even at 4 samples/second, you're seeing your AFR every 250 milliseconds or so. I would say thats plenty fast but I don't have a whole lot of experience tuning so I might be wrong. You might want to talk with one of the guys over at CP-E and ask them if 4-5 samples/second is sufficient for tuning. EDIT: opps, didn't refresh fast enough! LOL! Just saw Jordan's post
Good luck and keep us updated!
Last edited:
