AMS Mazda Speed 3 Test: The in's and outs of the MS3 powerplant

[Captain KRM P5]

I just want to make sure before I get into it. That chart is total BS.

a little confused, whats wrong with it?

 

[Aricjm15]

Tuning on direct injected cars is the best way to make power. If you call that dyno chart BS you might as well call up banks, bullydog and all the other diesel tuners and tell them their s*** doesnt work.
I really hope for you guys someone does come up with an ecu flash, it would be the first mazda ecu that has been cracked. It will be a long wait.

 

[Chris@AMS]

First off I want to say that I am not attacking anybody here, or even a particular tuning system in general. What I am trying to get across here is that the dyno chart that is posted is hardly evidence of any real gains.

Things that are wrong with said dyno chart (not things wrong with said shop or said tuning system)

A. The runs were started at different RPMS, either that, or the tuning system causes the car to spool up about 1000 RPMS quicker (shocked)

B. The Horsepower and torque scales are arranged in differently, this is not a clearical problem as much as it is a gripe from someone who is used to reading dyno charts a certain way.

Elaboration A. As it was stated in the data that I posted earlier, I had to do several different combinations of pulls to get a repeatable result. This chart almost looks like it was done in two different gears. I could go on my dyno here at the shop and probably produce the same result. The fact of the matter is; because of the drive by wire system, you have to be careful in the manner that you test the car. If you start the pull too late, or if you do it in a different gear, your results can vary greatly.

Obviously I was not at the shop when they were doing this testing. From my end I am finding these results hard to believe with the backround from testing that I have done on the MazdaSpeed3.

I have no issues with the shop or Corky Bell himself. I have read the book, as I'm sure many others have. I don't think that based on this merit alone you should take everything that it does and put it on a pedastal immediately. He has illustrated that he has a great amount of knowledge, but does he do all of the testing the marketing for the company? Does he simply own it? This is getting a bit off the subject, but my point is clear. I would expect everyone to buy a product based off its results, not based off of its name. I would expect everyone to do the same for our products.

This is why we spend so much time researching things before they are released the public. This is also the reason in most cases why our product can tend to cost a little bit more than the next guy. People haven't seemed to have a problem with this in the past and feel good knowing that they are getting a well throught out piece with lots of post sale support.

C. Finally this dyno that the car was tested on is a Dynojet. They are known for reading fairly similarly and don't have too much room for outside calibration. The dyno chart is UNCORRECTED and on a smoothing of 5. I see this alot when people are trying to inflate numbers. I also have a dynojet. If you go back to the first page you will see that our numbers a roughly similar (although the curve looks alot different because of the torque scaling). On SAE correction, the car is making just a little bit less on both sides one SAE correction with a smoothing of 3 (the way all of our dyno charts are presented). Here is a quick link I found regarding dyno testing and the SAE correction for those of you that are not familiar.
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0402tur_dyno_tricks_problems/
Since our dynomometers are rougly the same and I have completely bone stock car putting out similar numbers. I am going to have to say, without further information, that the chart that is listed is BS, or a sales tactic to sell more units.

Thanks
Chris

 

[Chris@AMS]

Tuning on direct injected cars is the best way to make power. If you call that dyno chart BS you might as well call up banks, bullydog and all the other diesel tuners and tell them their s*** doesn’t work.
I really hope for you guys someone does come up with an ecu flash, it would be the first mazda ecu that has been cracked. It will be a long wait.

Your compairison is valid, but a little off base. Diesels don't exactly have any sort of ignition timing. They actually work off of injection timing. My range of knowledge in this field is honestly a little limited at this point. What I know has been passed through one of the owners here at AMS who has a low 13 second ford powerstroke van. Sometimes it seems as if the different programs only regulate how much smoke the van puts out, but that is another story...

More than likely any sort of ignition timing of fuel curve optimizing is going to have very little result without some method of controlling that throttle body.

 

[JOMO]

Good work Chris. Good to see the AMS crew working on the MS3. You think your people will be possibly making custom aftermarket parts in the future.

 

[shark77]

I have to agree that a more accurate baseline, or perhaps a more contolled dyno to dyno comparison should be shown for the Xede. Numbers look amazing on that chart, but I bet the real results fall somewhere in between.

4000rpm to get full boost on a stock MS3??

I am really happy there is excitment building around the aftermarket for this car though. No need to over hype results, it appears that the car has good enough potential.

Excellent display of data and analysis from AMS.

 

[Aricjm15]

The XEDE does have the ability to controll boost on the MS3, the power comes in about the same place as the AMS dyno with the boost controller.

 

[Antoine]

Great to see more Tuners & Vendors interested in supporting the MS3 aftermarket!

AMS/Chris...Please note that you will need Authorized Vendor status BEFORE you conduct business in any way shape or form on Mazda Forums.

To start the process and apply...Please PM me with the following information:

-Your FULL Name
-Business license number
-Company Name and address
-Site Username
-Contact Information (phone, e-mail)
-Website
-Include information about the products and services you offer

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.

* It is fine to post R&D information for discussion purposes.

 

[trees]

what were your speed6 results? There are a ton more ms6's on the market than Ms3's. any news for these models?

+1

 

[BOOSTR]

I like your right ups and explanations. Can't wait to see the charts once you unleash the inner beast.

 

[Chris@AMS]

The XEDE does have the ability to controll boost on the MS3, the power comes in about the same place as the AMS dyno with the boost controller.

I am not disputing its ability to control boost. I have seen and used an XEDE before. As I stated earlier, the car will vent any boost pressure that is created anyways to a certain extent. Check out my manual boost controller test.

The curve with the xede is not in question. I think that it is correct. The compairison dyno plot is my reason for concern.

 

[ssinstaller]

what were your speed6 results? There are a ton more ms6's on the market than Ms3's. any news for these models?

+2

Any chance of you repeating the throttle position testing on the MS6.

Closing the throttle to control the boost seems like it adds unnecessary complication. It would have been just as easy to use a softer wastegate spring and change the mapping on the boost control solenoid--using boost control systems already in place. Except that closing the throttle plate makes it much more difficult for us to raise the boost.

The closing throttle coupled with the upper RPM timing advance seems like it could cause some huge problems for the few people that are trying to run the ATP turbo upgrade without tuning. I would be worried about holding even stock boost levels to redline with that much timing advance, much less 17+ psi on the GT turbo.

 

[Chris@AMS]

Except that closing the throttle plate makes it much more difficult for us to raise the boost.

Exactly, for the most part oem's do not want you to modify the car after it leaves the assembly line. Think of all the safety precautions like insurance for Mazda. Even if the boost control solenoid fails or loses a boost line, the car wont be able to carry that boost into the higher RPMS, even if the boost cut fails.

Honestly, the car that we had on the dyno came in for 3 pulls and that is the only reason I have any data. I was un-aware of the motor before then. I don't really have anything to add as far as MS6 performance goes. All I can say is that I think they are rougly the same, and may even be running the same engine program.

 

[vindication]

just a shameless question here, any chance us protege-ers can get a little piece of the ams pie?

 

[Pololo_MS3]

The curve with the xede is not in question. I think that it is correct. The compairison dyno plot is my reason for concern.

If you are having a hard time believing the comparison dyno plot, then how on EARTH were you guys the ONLY ones to get 250 WHP out of a stock car, while any other tests have shown way less power at the wheels? It looked like there was almost no drivetrain loss? Hard to believe this and when asked about any adjustments done due to temp, humidity and elevation, your answer is a bit vague in my opinion

I have been quite reserved about these numbers but let's face it, Mazda NEVER underrated their, in fact quite the opposite ie: Miata and RX8 and I am SURE they did the same with this car

I know you are not new to tuning and you definitely seem to know your stuff but the comment calling BEGI "BS" was uncalled for in my opinion

I believe any vendors outthere should be respectful to each other and winning customers with proof of what you guys have done instead of calling each other BS

I am not in any way defending BELL, nor do I have any affiliation with them, but I know what this name stands for; I am sure you even have the "turbo bible - Maximum Boost" in your shelves

I personally was lucky enough to meet the owner of the "BEGI-XEDE" test mule and I even drove the car!

It was day and night power wise with my car, power was smooth and it kept building even after the "5800" RPM cutoff all the way to redline!

Those numbers are right!

BTW, it seems like COBB might take a little longer as originally anticipated to release their AP

Good times indeed for MS3 owners

I will keep on waiting until a respectful tuner provides me what I am looking for

My 2 cents,
Carlos

 

[StephanieT]

First off I want to say that I am not attacking anybody here, or even a particular tuning system in general. What I am trying to get across here is that the dyno chart that is posted is hardly evidence of any real gains.

I will have to take the high road on this one.

Things that are wrong with said dyno chart (not things wrong with said shop or said tuning system)

A. The runs were started at different RPMS, either that, or the tuning system causes the car to spool up about 1000 RPMS quicker (shocked)

Of coarse they are different. When one has the ability to control the needed aspects of the engine, anything is possible. A lot has to do with when the engine goes open loop under boost. Send the engine into open loop 1000 rpms sooner and any power gain is a given.

B. The Horsepower and torque scales are arranged in differently, this is not a clearical problem as much as it is a gripe from someone who is used to reading dyno charts a certain way.

This would be no different than you displaying two runs on the same chart with mods. ALL cars act differently when things are done to them.

Elaboration A. As it was stated in the data that I posted earlier, I had to do several different combinations of pulls to get a repeatable result. This chart almost looks like it was done in two different gears. I could go on my dyno here at the shop and probably produce the same result. The fact of the matter is; because of the drive by wire system, you have to be careful in the manner that you test the car. If you start the pull too late, or if you do it in a different gear, your results can vary greatly.

Usually on a stock vehicle, repeatable results are a given. Nothing has changed, unless you do them on different days or when the engine coolant is very warm.

Obviously I was not at the shop when they were doing this testing. From my end I am finding these results hard to believe with the backround from testing that I have done on the MazdaSpeed3.

So said the person who got higher results than Mazda rated the car at? Only possible way to do that is with a steeper correction factor. Having dealt directly with Mazda Engineers on the this car - the car is rated at the engine only. Add the chassis, interior, etc.. you will make less power due to the weight of the vehicle and drive train losses.

I have no issues with the shop or Corky Bell himself. I have read the book, as I'm sure many others have. I don't think that based on this merit alone you should take everything that it does and put it on a pedastal immediately. He has illustrated that he has a great amount of knowledge, but does he do all of the testing the marketing for the company? Does he simply own it? This is getting a bit off the subject, but my point is clear. I would expect everyone to buy a product based off its results, not based off of its name. I would expect everyone to do the same for our products.

The two go hand in hand. Why would anyone buy a real Prada purse from a street vendor? All testing is done by the man himself. Does he operate the dyno? No. The guy that owns it does. There is a better consistency factor that way.

C. Finally this dyno that the car was tested on is a Dynojet. They are known for reading fairly similarly and don't have too much room for outside calibration. The dyno chart is UNCORRECTED and on a smoothing of 5. I see this alot when people are trying to inflate numbers.

Uncorrected #'s are usually less than corrected ones due to elevation, humidity and temperature.

Since our dynamometers are rougly the same and I have completely bone stock car putting out similar numbers. I am going to have to say, without further information, that the chart that is listed is BS, or a sales tactic to sell more units.

Just because it is scaled differently does not make it BS. Anyone who operates a dyno would be familiar with that. It make sense for one to have all the needed info in hand before ripping something to shreds. As stated earlier, I will take the high road here.
Have a Wonderful Day,
Stephanie

 

[dread]

all he is saying that the dyno graph doesn't look right and it doesn't, I believe a member on another forum actually photochopped the two plots together so people could read it. I don't doubt that there are gains with the xede, but I would like to see a better dyno of the results, before I bought one.

 

[AMS]

Great to see more Tuners & Vendors interested in supporting the MS3 aftermarket!

AMS/Chris...Please note that you will need Authorized Vendor status BEFORE you conduct business in any way shape or form on Mazda Forums.

To start the process and apply...Please PM me with the following information:

-Your FULL Name
-Business license number
-Company Name and address
-Site Username
-Contact Information (phone, e-mail)
-Website
-Include information about the products and services you offer

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.

* It is fine to post R&D information for discussion purposes.

I sent you an email yesterday regarding this, Still have not received a cal/email or PMl back regarding it.

Eric

 

[MSP608]

subscrizzle

 

[Chris@AMS]

If you are having a hard time believing the comparison dyno plot, then how on EARTH were you guys the ONLY ones to get 250 WHP out of a stock car, while any other tests have shown way less power at the wheels? It looked like there was almost no drivetrain loss? Hard to believe this and when asked about any adjustments done due to temp, humidity and elevation, your answer is a bit vague in my opinion

Once again, I am not disputing the actual numbers that the dyno is spitting out. I am questioning the compairison that has been made. I have had two other cars spit out rougly the same numbers on my dyno stock. My dyno should read rougly similar to that of any other dynojet... It has in the past.

I know you are not new to tuning and you definitely seem to know your stuff but the comment calling BEGI "BS" was uncalled for in my opinion

I believe any vendors outthere should be respectful to each other and winning customers with proof of what you guys have done instead of calling each other BS

I was NOT calling BEGI as a company BS, once again, I am questioning the dyno chart and the test methods. I apologize in advance if anyone has taken this the wrong way. I do not participate shop bashing.