2017 CX-5 2.5L Crank No Start issue

[richpiano]

From the dealer today:

"Engine - Long Block: Upon removing camshaft sensor, found metallic debris present on sensor magnet. Sent borescope through sensor mounting location and found several teeth ground off of cam gear due to improper lubrication. Vehicle unable to start due to timing issue caused by damage to gear. Engine replacement necessary due to high likelihood of metal chunks traveling through oil passageways. Service includes all necessary gaskets and fluids, as well as belt tensioner, water pump, and spark plug replacement due to mileage. Several components will be transferred from existing engine..."

Quote to replace is $8,446.30. I can only think that I must have not replaced enough oil when i did the change a thousand or two miles ago. Must be the lower cam gear because the top ones looked fine. There is no way around an engine replacement in this case? It doesn't make sense to drop that cash on it when it is only worth 10-13k. My options are probably to pay someone to rebuild and replace OR go with a new engine. I'm not sure what to do, but the car is useless as it sits.

 

[TheMAN]

I had a feeling that is what happened... there's no "lower cam gear", there's a crank sensor gear in the crankshaft that got damaged/moved out of position from whatever came apart

how are they certain it was "improper lubrication" did they say/measure how much oil came out?

there was 2016 CX-5 at my dealer with the same "no start" issue you got... one of the crank bearing cap bolts sheared off, damaged the lower engine block, the balancer shaft unit, and possibly the crank sensor gear, 7 months ago... it wasn't a lubrication issue... don't know if it got fixed by the dealer or owner took it elsewhere, since that car had 140-160k miles on it (don't remember clearly)

 

[richpiano]

Well, they are probably right. It was probably a quart low, but I had just changed the oil no more than 2000 miles ago. I have never had evidence of a leak so I don't really check between changes since I don't usually drive that car.... that's on me. But when I pulled the valve gasket a couple of weeks ago, one of the plugs was soaked in oil and the gasket had definitely been leaking into the plug hole.

What would you do if this was your car? I was thinking of pulling the engine myself and taking it somewhere but this generation CX-5 engine also has to be lowered out of the car, correct? I don't have a lift..

 

[richpiano]

I feel so guilty, I must not have filled the oil enough after changing it last time. I just don't know what to do now. It doesn't seem like many owners have to go through this based on how hard it is to find info on rebuilding/removing these engines, so it is on me. I'm just not sure what to do now.

 

[HyFlyer]

I feel so guilty, I must not have filled the oil enough after changing it last time. ...

No way "a quart low" would cause this. It would have to be nearly empty to cause an oil starvation issue and you would have low oil pressure warnings.

Maybe some debris or gunk or ?? blocked some oil passage or poor maintenance before you acquired the car has it sludged up . Idunno what happened but a quart low didn't cause it. Don't beat yourself up.

 

[RedBaron]

The engine in our 2014 failed some years ago due to no oil. There was no evidence of leaks like oil on the ground, so I now think it was not filled after the last oil change. Also, there was no warning light or anything until the rod knock started

Anyway, I had the dealership find a used engine and they swapped it over (and gave us a loaner). My son now drives the car and it's still going fine ~6 years since the swap. Cost us just over $4K, but again that was ~6 years ago.

 

[yieldchase]

Things happen.

I look at it this way... all things considered even with 8.5gs can you find an equivalent car? I can't around these parts.

Tough choice, I would either pull it myself from the front (something like this CX9 video

) or take it to a shop around me or an Engine shop around me and buy a used engine for them to put it in with some warranty. I find 2.5L around me for <5k CAD from time to time. I also just found a shop that imports from Japan ... so I would give them a call.

Bottom line I would keep the car but that is me. I suppose depends on your budget; depends if you like the car.

Sorry for sad news.

 

[TheMAN]

Well, they are probably right. It was probably a quart low, but I had just changed the oil no more than 2000 miles ago. I have never had evidence of a leak so I don't really check between changes since I don't usually drive that car.... that's on me. But when I pulled the valve gasket a couple of weeks ago, one of the plugs was soaked in oil and the gasket had definitely been leaking into the plug hole.

What would you do if this was your car? I was thinking of pulling the engine myself and taking it somewhere but this generation CX-5 engine also has to be lowered out of the car, correct? I don't have a lift..

these engines MIGHT burn oil, depending on how you drive the car, and what kind of oil you used

like I said... did they say if it was low on oil? running out of oil or low oil usually gives you even more damage than what you saw.... the sensor "gear" doesn't get lubricated so the only reason why it'll get damaged is because of something that ran into it, such as a chunk of metal

the pics I posted clearly shows it wasn't lack of maintenance or low oil that caused the engine damage... it appears to be metal fatigue or some sort of stress that broke it... looking through the parts catalog, over the lifespan of the SkyActiv-G 2.5, I can see they revised the engine block 5 times, head once, the pistons and rings once, the balance shaft unit once... of those revisions, only the block and balancer shaft revisions went further after your engine was made for your 2017 model year... the last year of the changes that applies to your iteration of engine was in mid 2018... anything afterwards for the "same engine" was for the newer ones with cylinder deactiviation

if you're going to find a used engine, I would find a 2018 engine, just in case

 

[richpiano]

Thanks for the advice. I am guessing buying an engine will be the best choice compared to rebuilding. If that gear was impacted who knows what else was too. I have always used Kirkland brand 0w20. There have been 2 exceptions in the last 100,000 miles that I used Mobil1 instead because I found it on sale. Always changed filter with oil too. I haven't had a chance to actually talk to the technician. I think I'm just getting whoever runs their desk, like an intern or something.

It looks like I can get an engine shipped for a little over 4k from OEMMazdaParts.com (https://mazda.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/mazda-engine-pyzu02300a). Or I can get a used one from Ebay for a little over 2k (MAZDA 3 Engine Motor 2.5L 4 Cyl 2023 PYZU02300A 19,525 Miles OEM | eBay). I don't want to have to buy then rebuild a used one, though.

I will also say I have had issues with buying a used "JDM" engine for a Nissan that then arrived damaged. Turns out a lot of companies use stock photos, not of the actual engine.

 

[TheMAN]

Things happen.

I look at it this way... all things considered even with 8.5gs can you find an equivalent car? I can't around these parts.

Tough choice, I would either pull it myself from the front (something like this CX9 video

) or take it to a shop around me or an Engine shop around me and buy a used engine for them to put it in with some warranty. I find 2.5L around me for <5k CAD from time to time. I also just found a shop that imports from Japan ... so I would give them a call.

Bottom line I would keep the car but that is me. I suppose depends on your budget; depends if you like the car.

Sorry for sad news.

doesn't work like that with a CX-5... the engine drops out from the bottom of the car (same with the 3 and 6), with the crossmember... very big job

 

[TheMAN]

Thanks for the advice. I am guessing buying an engine will be the best choice compared to rebuilding. If that gear was impacted who knows what else was too. I have always used Kirkland brand 0w20. There have been 2 exceptions in the last 100,000 miles that I used Mobil1 instead because I found it on sale. Always changed filter with oil too. I haven't had a chance to actually talk to the technician. I think I'm just getting whoever runs their desk, like an intern or something.

It looks like I can get an engine shipped for a little over 4k from OEMMazdaParts.com (https://mazda.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/mazda-engine-pyzu02300a). Or I can get a used one from Ebay for a little over 2k (MAZDA 3 Engine Motor 2.5L 4 Cyl 2023 PYZU02300A 19,525 Miles OEM | eBay). I don't want to have to buy then rebuild a used one, though.

I will also say I have had issues with buying a used "JDM" engine for a Nissan that then arrived damaged. Turns out a lot of companies use stock photos, not of the actual engine.

I haven't entirely dismissed lubrication issues, but I'm still doubting it.... but, what oil filters have you been using? Using any aftermarket filter except for a select few will cause issues because their relief valves are not spec'd for the SkyActiv... most aftermarket filters are made for old school mazda engines, which happens to have the same threads and dimensions as the SkyActiv filter... this has been talked about many times here and other forums

as you can see, the long block is about $5000, and what you linked isn't the right one for your car... you're also missing the gaskets, which comes in the "partial engine gasket" set you need to be able to swap your manifolds, water pump, oil pump, crank pulley, accessories, etc

it's a big job... that's why dealer parts markup, plus labor costs that's probably around 10 hours or more to get this done... your local neighborhood "friendly" mechanic might be able to do it for less, but they'll probably be scratching their heads doing this at the same time since they might not be familiar with something modern... it's not rocket science or anything complicated, it's just labor intensive and lots of parts swapping... motor must come out the bottom of the car to make it easier to swap... not that taking it out from top is impossible, it's a hot mess to do that

 

[richpiano]

I use M1-110A Mobil 1 filters religiously. Probably shouldn't do that anymore I'm guessing. I always changed the oil between 4-6k miles, usually doing it within a couple hundred of 5k.

Regarding the links, you mean the Ebay one? I can see now that is the wrong part #. I can keep looking for a used example to compare. Looks like the OEM engine is the right part # for my car.

Based on what you said, it sounds like you think it best to go the route of paying the dealer to swap? Or forget it and scrap it?

 

[richpiano]

My struggle is that it has 170k miles and I can take that 8k and go buy a Lexus GX470 with 200-230k miles right now that my stupid self understands better. I would expect it to last as long as our Mazda.

If I fix this one, she will still probably want a GX since she won't feel comfortable after this one left us stranded.

Orrrr...

I can pay 9k to have engine replaced and then attempt to sell it eventually for what, maybe 10-12k? I think that is about what CX-5 GTs with that much mileage seem to be going for. Technically, probably still best to replace the engine if I could get more than 10-11k for the car I would guess

 

[cz5gt]

From the dealer today:

"Engine - Long Block: Upon removing camshaft sensor, found metallic debris present on sensor magnet. Sent borescope through sensor mounting location and found several teeth ground off of cam gear due to improper lubrication. Vehicle unable to start due to timing issue caused by damage to gear. Engine replacement necessary due to high likelihood of metal chunks traveling through oil passageways. Service includes all necessary gaskets and fluids, as well as belt tensioner, water pump, and spark plug replacement due to mileage. Several components will be transferred from existing engine..."

Quote to replace is $8,446.30. I can only think that I must have not replaced enough oil when i did the change a thousand or two miles ago. Must be the lower cam gear because the top ones looked fine. There is no way around an engine replacement in this case? It doesn't make sense to drop that cash on it when it is only worth 10-13k. My options are probably to pay someone to rebuild and replace OR go with a new engine. I'm not sure what to do, but the car is useless as it sits.

prob get a good used engine but you need a trustworthy indie mechanic for this. ot scrap the car... not many options as you said

 

[TheMAN]

I use M1-110A Mobil 1 filters religiously. Probably shouldn't do that anymore I'm guessing. I always changed the oil between 4-6k miles, usually doing it within a couple hundred of 5k.

Regarding the links, you mean the Ebay one? I can see now that is the wrong part #. I can keep looking for a used example to compare. Looks like the OEM engine is the right part # for my car.

Based on what you said, it sounds like you think it best to go the route of paying the dealer to swap? Or forget it and scrap it?

that is a "one size fits all" filter... it's not specific to a skyactiv engine... it's application listed is also for the protege, 626, escort, etc... not the same higher oil pressures at all, filter not rated for the higher pressures... it's not a bad filter, just not really for your car

had you done more research, you would've known to just stick to the OEM mazda filter for a peace of mind... maybe if you joined the forum when you first got your car and hung around here like many mazda fanatics do, you would've came across the discussions and known it that way too... it's hard to blame you for this because not even non-dealer mechanics know better... way too much faith is put in aftermarket products and the companies doing the right thing, but my years of experience tells me NOT to trust the aftermarket at all until you researched and scrutinized yourself with an informed mind... years ago when cars weren't as built as high strung to wring out every bit of performance out of whatever component in the car, with the lightest weight materials, they were more forgiving to slapping on random junky parts and it still worked... not any more for some things.... so, "trust but verify"... if you're not good at it or know how to do it, then just stick to OEM parts that are guaranteed to work and any issues, the blame can't be easily shifted back to you or the parts

so, it's unknown now whether that filter and/or low oil level led to the engine's demise or it simply came apart from metal fatigue/defect... we're not engineers here, nor have we seen the engine up close ourselves, so it's very hard to say... what's more certain now is because of the aftermarket filter, any hope of good will coverage or discount from mazda is less certain than ever, especially with mileage I'm assuming (you never said) that's at least more than double the powertrain warranty's limits... you can try to plead for it, and see if the dealer is willing to put in a request for you or they can just tell you to pound sand and make you choke on the repair cost... all depends on your luck, how your relationship is with your dealer/how nice they are to you lol

and both of the links you posted has the same engine part #... both 2023-2024 mazda3/CX-5 engines... NOT the right engine... there are some differences, such as oil level sensor in the oil pan, which you have no place to hook up to... that dealer website lists the applications of whatever part you look up, you need to pay attention to what it says... best to put in your VIN to filter it down to the right one, or call that dealer with your VIN and ask for the right part #

 

[richpiano]

To be honest, I didn't even know about this forum until I started heavily googling my issues recently. I have been in a couple of facebook groups for years. You know how that can be I'm sure - scattered helpful information here and there, with occasional bad advice sprinkled in. However, that is still on me. I'm ultimately the one responsible for taking care of the car. I've been involved in forums for my Toyota and motorcycles, so don't know why I didn't for this one.

I have never stepped into the dealership for anything other than parts the last couple of weeks, so I'm not sure it is worth wasting my breath to plead for help. I guess I can still try.

Thanks for the help with the engines. That's interesting, I don't fully trust these online OEM parts retailers. I have had bad experiences with shipping from 2 separate ones. When I get a chance, hopefully today, I will try to make some headway on finding a good used engine option to compare to a legitimate oem price and also see if the dealer is willing to work with me on assistance.

 

[clownshoes2]

No way "a quart low" would cause this. It would have to be nearly empty to cause an oil starvation issue and you would have low oil pressure warnings.

Maybe some debris or gunk or ?? blocked some oil passage or poor maintenance before you acquired the car has it sludged up . Idunno what happened but a quart low didn't cause it. Don't beat yourself up.

Yeah dude, no way this was a quart low. My 2017 either leaks or is burning a little bit and I need to top up. I've had it to the middle and bottom of the dipstick. This motor was ran dry for a looooooooooooooooooong time. This reminds me to check my oil.

 

[richpiano]

Yeah its possible I'm just totally incompetent

 

[TheMAN]

To be honest, I didn't even know about this forum until I started heavily googling my issues recently. I have been in a couple of facebook groups for years. You know how that can be I'm sure - scattered helpful information here and there, with occasional bad advice sprinkled in. However, that is still on me. I'm ultimately the one responsible for taking care of the car. I've been involved in forums for my Toyota and motorcycles, so don't know why I didn't for this one.

I have never stepped into the dealership for anything other than parts the last couple of weeks, so I'm not sure it is worth wasting my breath to plead for help. I guess I can still try.

Thanks for the help with the engines. That's interesting, I don't fully trust these online OEM parts retailers. I have had bad experiences with shipping from 2 separate ones. When I get a chance, hopefully today, I will try to make some headway on finding a good used engine option to compare to a legitimate oem price and also see if the dealer is willing to work with me on assistance.

facebook has been a go to for many people for years and many forums have turned into a shell of what they used to be... but facebook isn't really designed for looking up old stuff, so any useful things posted before are buried and hard to find, especially since the search function sucks and is really slow

I don't service my mazdas at my dealer, as I DIY basically everything, except for that one time last year where I had them flush the transmission in our 3 with their machine because it's too much trouble DIYing... but I've built up a relationship with them by buying parts consistently from them for almost 25 years, and getting to know a lot of the people... this had helped gained many favors and perks

and those dealer websites show pretty accurate information, you just need to pay attention to the details, and put in the VIN to filter down to stuff that applies to your car if needed

Yeah its possible I'm just totally incompetent

or not... metal fatigue or manufacturing defect isn't out of the question
but after the car died, have you ever checked the oil at all? I'm guessing not, since you haven't raised that point nor stated you argued with your dealer about it

 

[Mazdiod2]

To be honest, I didn't even know about this forum until I started heavily googling my issues recently. I have been in a couple of facebook groups for years. You know how that can be I'm sure - scattered helpful information here and there, with occasional bad advice sprinkled in. However, that is still on me. I'm ultimately the one responsible for taking care of the car. I've been involved in forums for my Toyota and motorcycles, so don't know why I didn't for this one.

I have never stepped into the dealership for anything other than parts the last couple of weeks, so I'm not sure it is worth wasting my breath to plead for help. I guess I can still try.

Thanks for the help with the engines. That's interesting, I don't fully trust these online OEM parts retailers. I have had bad experiences with shipping from 2 separate ones. When I get a chance, hopefully today, I will try to make some headway on finding a good used engine option to compare to a legitimate oem price and also see if the dealer is willing to work with me on assistance.

It looks like your decision is all about the numbers now... how much do you have in it? how much to fix? how much to replace? how much inconvenience can you tolerate? etc.

Would the dealer make you a good deal on a trade?