13B, 20B, Can someone enlighten me?

[Katner]

Rather than be a one-time poster in some other RX-8 virtual realm, I thought I'd wander over to the Rotary section and ask you guys...

Can you explain the Rotary family of motors to me?? I see references to 13B and 20B and I'm guessing 13B = 1.3L = current RX-8. Obviously the 20B is a 2.0L but what else is there?

Reason I ask is that I want to buy a Japanese sports (or sporty) car for myself this spring and I LOVE the looks of some of you guy's RX-8's. But the only way I can rationalize it's poor gas mileage to myself (and my wife) is by making sure I can put at least 350 or 400hp to the wheels. So I'm starting to think of going with like an '04 and swapping out the 13B, along with the full suspension.

Other considerations are an '07 G37 or pulling this same kind of stunt with a 350Z, although I don't like the looks, or the road manners of the portly Z nearly as much as the RX-8. But it might be quicker, for cheaper, for less money/mile as well when it comes down to it. Can I get some feedback?

 

[JDM-P5]

Rather than be a one-time poster in some other RX-8 virtual realm, I thought I'd wander over to the Rotary section and ask you guys...

Can you explain the Rotary family of motors to me?? I see references to 13B and 20B and I'm guessing 13B = 1.3L = current RX-8. Obviously the 20B is a 2.0L but what else is there?

Reason I ask is that I want to buy a Japanese sports (or sporty) car for myself this spring and I LOVE the looks of some of you guy's RX-8's. But the only way I can rationalize it's poor gas mileage to myself (and my wife) is by making sure I can put at least 350 or 400hp to the wheels. So I'm starting to think of going with like an '04 and swapping out the 13B, along with the full suspension.

Other considerations are an '07 G37 or pulling this same kind of stunt with a 350Z, although I don't like the looks, or the road manners of the portly Z nearly as much as the RX-8. But it might be quicker, for cheaper, for less money/mile as well when it comes down to it. Can I get some feedback?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel
All you want to know and more.

Get the RX.

 

[altspace]

Also read the article I posted. You'll understand and appreciate the RX-8 that much more. http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123695571

 

[SpooledupRacing]

Great links...

put it this way...

13B is all u will buy.. unless u get lucky and find a 20B swap.. 9wotn be in an rx8 but in an rx7 u can find them)

13B RE is out of the cosmo and is a hell of an engine..

Some hybrids have been built like mine which is a 13B RE irons, FD (13B- REW) housings etc..

The G35 or even 37 is a great car.. u will get more umph and more mpg out of it.. BUT.. go drive an RX7 or RX8 and see what it does for you.. I dont think these are cars u buy hoping it grows on you.. because the rotary engine is a fun engine but if u dont enjoy the car and the little bs (like fuel economy, maintence, future rotary issues) will piss u off and u wont enjoy the car..

good luck on your search..

BTW this is my opinon on the 13B engine

RX7 86-88 13B series 4 (not worth the money, slow, relaiable but not a big power maker)

RX7 89-91 13B series 5 9roughly 25hp more, more fun, better tq band, better internals

RX7 87-91 13B turbo (series 4 or 5) more power then the non turbo, fun engien to play with, great potential

RX7 93-95 (13B REW twin turbo) loads of fun, but put in a much heavier car, the REW was a weaker engine maitnence wise as it did seem to have more issues, mainly due to the 2 hitachi turbos.

RX8 13B renises (side port) emission built engine, internally the parts are GREAT, the design is good but even with this "emissions rotary" it does not give u better mpg, there is more power but in a heavier car IMO it feel a little numb.. over all the car is fun, the motor is good (not sure on longevity yet) but I know these engines will not be the future for high hp builds.. they already have known issues of e-shaft snapage at higher hp levels.

 

[JDM-P5]

My Mom still has her 89 GTU...fun FUN car.

 

[SpooledupRacing]

89 GTU is nice.. S5 with LSD.. fun car..

 

[JDM-P5]

LOL..true...but my Mom really didn't know back in 1989...she bought it because it was cherry red, fast and a Mazda!

 

[SpooledupRacing]

Good reason!!

 

[Antoine]

Any way you slice it or dice it...Rotary Mazdas are unique and special cars that will reward you with endless smiles and driving enjoyment in a way that no piston powered car can...That is, if you are prepared to properly take care of it and treat it like a "high maintenance" woman that you can't get enough of...

 

[JDM-P5]

^
What he said.

 

[notorque]

if you get an RX8 and try to do the swap route, its going to cost money....a 20b said and done in the car is around 20grand at a shop. but if you like forced induction, a local guy near me has an rx8 supercharged with the pettit supercharger kit and that thing scoots. in fact seeing that car has convinced me to go the FI route. But out of all the cars ive had, mazdaspeed protege, integras, civics, mustangs....all with more power than what i have now.....

for some reason i just love driving this RX8 more than any vehicle i have been in.

 

[Antoine]

Sheesh...$20K for a complete 20B swap...Hopefully that will keep a few more 20Bs in there native habitat (Eunos Cosmo) instead of being ripped out for swaps...Although I can understand the overwhelming desire some people might have for ****** awesomeness!

If I had an RX-8...I'd stick with the engine it was designed with...The RENESIS and upgrade that...

 

[lil_red_wagon]

yeah, it's kind of hard to molest a car so early on in it's life. putting down 350-400 hp in the average RWD car is pretty nice, but in an rx8 it would be borderlined on terrifying. you could get something that needs 300 just to break the rear-end loose, but the rx8 can do that stock without that many hp. this is about drive-train weight and final weight of the car also, not just the hp numbers. the rx8 might be heavier than other rotaries, but it is way lighter than some of the other cars around and it has a lighter drivetrain.

 

[SpooledupRacing]

Here is what I think..

20B in an FC or cosmo
13B RE in a FC or Cosmo
REW stays in the FD
Renesis in the RX8

all the RX8 guys say how awsome the Renesis is so I say cool.. stick with it..

I would never remove the renesis unless it blew then I would put in a 13B or RE.. the renesis is week it is an "EMISSIONS" rotary.. no porting can help, no overlap, no super high revving etc..

a 20B in an RX8... HAHAHA NO!

 

[DMRH]

Great links...

put it this way...


13B RE is out of the cosmo
RX7 86-88 13B series 4
RX7 89-91 13B series 5
RX7 87-91 13B turbo (series 4 or 5)
RX7 93-95 (13B REW twin turbo) .
RX8 13B renises .

Just to correct some mistakes. & add the complete fuel injected 13B list with their correct Mazda identities from model to model using the correct model years & not the USA wank factor of adding a year........

13B-RESI = FB RX-7 (Series-3 / 84-85) + HB Cosmo
13B-6PI = FC RX-7 (series-4 / 86-88)
13B-TII = FC RX-7 (series-4 / 86-88) + HC Luce
13B-6PI = FC RX-7 (series-5 / 89-91)
13B-TII = FC RX-7 (series-5 / 89-91)
13B-REW = JC Cosmo (90-95)
13B-REW = FD RX-7 (series-6 / 92-95)
13B-REW = FD RX-7 (series-7 / 96-98)
13B-REW = FD RX-7 (series-8 / 99-02)
13B-MSP = FE RX-8 (series-1 / 03-07)
13B-MSP = FE RX-8 (series-2 / 08-09)

 

[SpooledupRacing]

Just to correct some mistakes. & add the complete fuel injected 13B list with their correct Mazda identities from model to model using the correct model years & not the USA wank factor of adding a year........

13B-RESI = FB RX-7 (Series-3 / 84-85) + HB Cosmo
13B-6PI = FC RX-7 (series-4 / 86-88)
13B-TII = FC RX-7 (series-4 / 86-88) + HC Luce
13B-6PI = FC RX-7 (series-5 / 89-91)
13B-TII = FC RX-7 (series-5 / 89-91)
13B-REW = JC Cosmo (90-95)
13B-REW = FD RX-7 (series-6 / 92-95)
13B-REW = FD RX-7 (series-7 / 96-98)
13B-REW = FD RX-7 (series-8 / 99-02)
13B-MSP = FE RX-8 (series-1 / 03-07)
13B-MSP = FE RX-8 (series-2 / 08-09)

Yeah I did not post any mistakes.. I just didnt post any Japan spec cars..

I only commented on US spec cars..

 

[Shadow102]

Here is what I think..

20B in an FC or cosmo
13B RE in a FC or Cosmo
REW stays in the FD
Renesis in the RX8

all the RX8 guys say how awsome the Renesis is so I say cool.. stick with it..

I would never remove the renesis unless it blew then I would put in a 13B or RE.. the renesis is week it is an "EMISSIONS" rotary.. no porting can help, no overlap, no super high revving etc..

a 20B in an RX8... HAHAHA NO!

I went to rotorfest in NJ back in 2003 when the rx8 was still relativly new and I believe it was Acosta motorsports rolled up with two rx8's rocking 20B's it was pretty cool I left before they took them out to a back parking lot and had a little fun with them though

 

[Katner]

It's time I chime back in here. Thank you to everyone. The links posted are enlightening, and I appreciate everyone's advice.

I apologize that I haven't updated the thread with my own two-bits. I've actually been spending my internet time lurking in several other sports car forums just trying to see what people are doing with their cars so I can get a picture of what kind of performance I'm going to be getting for my money depending on which route I go.

Any way you slice it or dice it...Rotary Mazdas are unique and special cars that will reward you with endless smiles and driving enjoyment in a way that no piston powered car can...That is, if you are prepared to properly take care of it and treat it like a "high maintenance" woman that you can't get enough of...

Antoine himself! Thanks for dropping in! What specifically do you mean by "properly take care of it"? Thing is I can't exactly sling a wrench beyond doing a few trivial mods and upgrades (and I need instruction manuals). I love motors, and motoring in general, I just don't seem to have time to learn. What's really involved in these "high maintenance women" for example?

And I totally agree on the uniqueness and character of these cars. That's part of what appeals to me. You'll find small-block Chevy V8's in everything from vans to pick-ups, to family sedans, to the Vette ZR1 (albeit dramatically altered). I realize these rotaries are special.

 

[Shadow102]

Antoine himself! Thanks for dropping in! What specifically do you mean by "properly take care of it"? Thing is I can't exactly sling a wrench beyond doing a few trivial mods and upgrades (and I need instruction manuals). I love motors, and motoring in general, I just don't seem to have time to learn. What's really involved in these "high maintenance women" for example?

Rotary engines use oil its a fact of nature because of the way the engine is designed therefore it is imperative you keep an eye on your oil usually every gas fill up is a good idea and keep a spare quart in the car.

Secondly carbon buildup is your enemy. 90% of the time when you hear about a rotary engine dieing its because of carbon buildup killing a apex seal. Best way to combat this is to occasionally drive the car like you stole it lol. The RX-8 has a 9k redline use it at least once every drive to keep the carbon out of the engine.

This is for the older cars but always keep your cooling system up to par. You over heat a rotary its pretty much done.

Overall like i believe has been stated before the rotary engine is a race engine put in a mass produced car and needs to be treated as such. HOWEVER even with these issues these engines are great. Very simplistic and are pretty easy to work on. I love my rotary and even in the month and a half of owning one already want to buy another lol.

 

[Katner]

Rotary engines use oil its a fact of nature because of the way the engine is designed therefore it is imperative you keep an eye on your oil usually every gas fill up is a good idea and keep a spare quart in the car.

Secondly carbon buildup is your enemy. 90% of the time when you hear about a rotary engine dieing its because of carbon buildup killing a apex seal. Best way to combat this is to occasionally drive the car like you stole it lol. The RX-8 has a 9k redline use it at least once every drive to keep the carbon out of the engine.

This is for the older cars but always keep your cooling system up to par. You over heat a rotary its pretty much done.

Overall like i believe has been stated before the rotary engine is a race engine put in a mass produced car and needs to be treated as such. HOWEVER even with these issues these engines are great. Very simplistic and are pretty easy to work on. I love my rotary and even in the month and a half of owning one already want to buy another lol.

That's it? Just keep herheart pounding every time you take her out and she'll basically return the favor?

I read in a couple of other threads that most of the Rx8s that die are due to middle-aged men trying to baby there car so they never rev it up and eventually they die from the carbon. One other car I'm considering is an AP1 s2000 which also revs to 9000rpm. But when people say "ya the f20 loves to rev" I think to myself 'how can that be true of a piston engine?' That has to simply be an expression meaning "you have to rev this thing or it feels like a del sol" whereas with the rx8 that expression is actually true.