04 MZ3 Build Thread. 180-190whp...

just to clarify, timing doesnt give you HP at all... lol not sure if you every dyno tuned your car, but its done in two sessions... first you achieve AFR that you want and like, then do the torque with timing !!!

Its actually completely impossible to increase engine torque at a given RPM, without increasing horsepower at the same RPM. See....they are really related...

Torque is simply a momentary angular force - power is energy exerted over time (a rate of performing work).

The relationship between horsepower and torque is expressed as Torque (lb/ft = (HP * RPM)/5252

Therefore, if at a given fixed RPM you increase torque, you must also increase horsepower.

You can of course, alter WHEEL TORQUE by way of altering the gearing (as gear ratios will multiply or divide torque according to their gear ratio, as the rotational speed of the wheels are different compared to the rotational speed of the crank) without increasing horsepower - but timing wont change your gearing!

Timing *will* enhance horsepower - but its not the only enhancer of horsepower. When you boil it all down, every ounce of power your car makes is derived from the burning of fuel (the conversion of energy released during combustion into mechanical energy). Timing alters WHEN the fuel is ignited relative to the position of the crank which can alter how much force is exerted on the pistons. The whole goal of making horsepower is to burn as much fuel as possible while maintaining the AFR in the range where it makes the most horsepower, without blowing the motor to pieces. By freeing up the engines ability to breathe, or by adding a turbo, or by throwing nitrous at it, it allows you to burn MORE fuel at the right ratio and thus make more power.

While i'm at it - i'll clarify a post earlier regarding compression and turbos. A turbo charger *does not* increase compression. Compression is static (valve overlap not withstanding) - a 10:1 compression piston will compress the air and fuel in the cylinder 10 times. In the NA game, that means compressing from 1 atmosphere, to 10 atmospheres. If you have a turbo pushing in air at 2 atmospheres (psia of around about 28psi, or a psig, the pressure read on the gauge, of 14psi), then a 10:1 compression piston will compress it to 20 atmospheres. Cylinder pressures go up, but the compression ratio is going to be the same.

I've had it up to my neck with the miss information, and downright rude and obnoxious posting in this thread. Along with the incessant postwhoring. If you want to have a conversation 1 line at a time, PLEASE use PMs. If you want to post incorrect information, don't give me attitude when you are corrected.

I'm seriously 1 stupid post short of pruning this thread back to the (few) worthwhile posts in it, and locking it.
 
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My car has been on the dyno perhaps twenty times in the past two years. Yes, I have watched my car being dyno-tuned, and I have personally tuned my own AFRs and ignition timing. And I've learned a lot by doing so.

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You do the AFRs first, because you can't do timing until your AFRs are dialled in. Attempting to tune ignition timing with AFRs that are lean in spots and rich in others won't let you maximize your gains from ignition advances. Once you've got your AFRs dialled in, then you can work on ignition safely. Both will give you gains.

Horsepower is, by definition, torque applied over time. When you gain torque, you are gaining horsepower. It's just easier to call mid-range power torque because that's where it peaks... but really, it's all about horsepower under the curve. Which is why the Engine Masters competition focuses on average horsepower over a spread, because that's what gives you the most accurate gauge of how quickly an engine will get a car down the road.

Focusing on torque over a spread will tell you nothing unless you convert it. An engine that makes x foot pounds of average torque at 2000-4000 rpm will not be as fast as an engine that makes the same average from 4000-6000, because the second engine will be making more horsepower.

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Sorry... that part is completely off-topic... but it seems appropriate. :D
 
i understand, but i saw difference in HP when torque was maxed out, and there was virtually none
 
i understand, but i saw difference in HP when torque was maxed out, and there was virtually none

as rpm approaches 5252, torque and RPM appear to coincide. They dont, they are different units of measurement, but if you are making 150hp at 5252, you are also making 150 lbs ft of torque at 5252....but if you increase horsepower at 5252 to 200hp, you also increase your torque to 200lbs ft @ 5252.

Its a fact - you can't get away from it. You cannot increase one at a given rpm, without increasing the other at the same rpm. It is simply a mechanical impossibility.
 
i understand. im just explaining what i noticed when we dynod the car

You would have noticed that if you increased torque at a given engine speed, you also increased horsepower at that same engine speed.

There's no 2 ways about it....that is what happened....
 
Damn... how'd that happen?
well i launched the car from 3k rpm.. slipped the clutch.. gripped great.. then again when i caught traction again at around 4800 rpm... for a split second.. then lost traction again.. got nasty wheel hop, and trans cracked..
 
haha yea true that... not sure if ill lose any handling capabilities with traction bars since it will make the front stiffer
 
in mean time.. pics :)
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