Why not try this piggyback?

[Focus]

I was only there for one weekend but I installed the new injectors and was in the car during the auto-mapping, during the start-up during the initial test drives, etc. Her car was flying. There was an intercooler hose that popped off on the test drive so we snugged it up by hand and turned the boost off for the ride home and had NO problems.

After that weekend I don't know what happened with her car. I do know it was cold as s*** though. If I heard right after the perfworks thing went down she took the AEM out of her car. I don't know what the deal is.

If this is the car that was at the wagner open house, then NO it did not run properly with the bigger injectors. My buddy Metal was there for the open house.

 

[MPNick]

the Haltech can adjust the fuel acording to the 02 sensor or a UEGO, so if you set it up right it could probably tune it self at idle, the F10x and E6x can do A LOT, Juan just provides you with the minimum to get the car running well

Bull s***, no car will run as good at idle as with the stock injector/size. I have talked to people who have been in the cars running the bigger injectors. It is always the same. Cold start suck, idle is not that good, when the A/C comes on it may stall. After you get going the car does run alot better. Still no one has posted any dyno sheet that is anywhere as good as the MPI cars. We do not have stalling, cold start problems, or run rich.

 

[MPNick]

Nick why do you always get so defensive of your product,
.

Not going to let the same few -ick heads talk s*** about things they know nothing about.

 

[MPNick]

the AEM will idle perfectly for me and my planned 80-90 lb inectors...

At what rpm?

I am sure he can get the system running better on your car then anyone on this forum.

However, the 80-90 injector will never idle perfect on your car. Maybe at a higher idle it will be something your can live with.

 

[MPNick]

I just have to add that I am not even in my turbo's effiency range with my turbo and you are in yours.

It does not matter. The fact is you made alot more power per lbs of boost. Even before fuel cut.

 

[RyanJayG]

At what rpm?

I am sure he can get the system running better on your car then anyone on this forum.

However, the 80-90 injector will never idle perfect on your car. Maybe at a higher idle it will be something your can live with.

certainly it wil help that everything on my car is adjustable, via either the AEM EMS, my MAM fuel rail and FPR, etc... Beau does A LOT of work with AEM since he is so close and is friends with many of them. if you buy any AEM part for a mustang, chances are he is the one who ran, tested, and advised changes to them.

as for rpm's I will be increasing my idle rpms by about 100-150 anyways, because the AWR motormouts dont make the car oscilate at 800-900or so, but at 700 its crazy. the AEM WBO2 I have will significantly help in setting maps on auto tune, but you should never run the car off the "base map" it will have many peeks and valleys that need to be ironed out. I have no worries at all. the thing is Beau is going even crazier on his thumper car... I cant give any info about it, but just wait. hands down the most powerful protege on the forum when its done. no question.

 

[Micah]

the thing is Beau is going even crazier on his thumper car... I cant give any info about it, but just wait. hands down the most powerful protege on the forum when its done. no question.

I'd be interested to see the final receipts on the car when he is done. Let's not forget that how much power you are making should be weighed against how much you are spending.

Can't wait to see it when it's finished.

 

[TurfBurn]

Bull s***, no car will run as good at idle as with the stock injector/size. I have talked to people who have been in the cars running the bigger injectors. It is always the same. Cold start suck, idle is not that good, when the A/C comes on it may stall. After you get going the car does run alot better. Still no one has posted any dyno sheet that is anywhere as good as the MPI cars. We do not have stalling, cold start problems, or run rich.

What about Terry's 253 whp with the Microtech system, and the only problem he had was a slipping clutch that hurt the numbers.

It took a lot of tuning but after I got it right running 550cc injectors the car started up and ran without any stalling or idle issues. I've never had an issue with my AC either.

Comparing apples to apples as far as PSI and a stock head and block. Yes the MPI and Dean's car is the highest number so far, but also, there haven't been really any pushed/tuned/managed forged motors yet.

 

[TurfBurn]

I'd be interested to see the final receipts on the car when he is done. Let's not forget that how much power you are making should be weighed against how much you are spending.

Can't wait to see it when it's finished.

Very true... I'm going crazy on my build (In my opinion) and doing everything "right" so the car will be built well and just this build (not including my LSD, fuel system, engine management, JandS, and other bits and pieces) I'm in nearly 7K by the time I finish... I'll give Beau a run for his money to a certain point....(and then he'll leave me firmly behind) but that's also because Beau has been so very kind and gratious to help me out when I've needed it and answer questions. He's doing some fabulous things and it'll be exciting to see!

We also have to ask ourselves at what point we are being silly. Dana has commented on the power issue with traction... 300-400 horse is likely be extraordinarily difficult to deal with at times.

 

[TurfBurn]

Here's that dyno from the Microtech for reference... posted by Terry back in 2003. 253 whp at 13 psi (one of the best numbers at 13 psi that I know of) with a slipping clutch.

 

[Dexter]

A) Dick Cheeny is an asshole.
B) Authorized Vendors can swear all they want.
C) A legit question now: Why do bigger injectors in the stock locations cause problem with ANY EMS?

 

[TurfBurn]

The only reasoning that I can think of is that you may get to such a low opening rate and your atomization may be poor enough with the low air flow levels that you don't get good fuel dispersion and thus get a bad burn. But keep in mind that TBI vehicles like my old chev Blazer runs two rather large injetors and that's it... lot of fuel getting dumped by those boys.

But I really think that it comes down to the mist not being fine enough or an issue with the fuel dispersion. It would have to be that as the fuel amount would still be the same, in the same locations. The only difference would be the time period and spray pattern that it comes from. It may also be related to how finite the tuning has to be. Keep in mind that a 500 cc injector compared to a 250cc injector in theory dumps twice as much fuel in the same ms open pulse. So you'd have to have twice the ms resolution to get the 500CC adjusted right. I know when I first got my car it started like crap, it idled like crap, and hated cold weather. A lot of time tuning my idle over and over and over and I finally got it to start up with just a bit of cranking, and then idle nicely without stalling.

And Dick Cheny isn't an asshole .

Some Math:
At idle, 550cc injector open time on my car ~1.7ms.
in theory 250cc injector open time would be 3.4 ms
resolution of .1ms = 3% increase for the 250cc injector ~6% increase for 550cc injector. BUT that's actually 12% more fuel compared to 6% more fuel, twice the deviation at the same adjustment. Lot harder to nail a specific AFR or fuel quantity.

It's a possibility.

 

[Super Matty P]

I guess if we're just shooting for peak horsepower numbers without regard to cost I might as well throw my hat in the ring. I plan on dropping another $5-7K to finish the powertrain in my supercharged p5 but I think 300+whp will be very possible.

p.s. 253whp @13psi is awesome man. I'd like to see more microtech info.

 

[Dexter]

So aren't there parameters in the software to tell the EMS what size injectors you are using. I mean, im sure there is a way to tune that...i dont see how its possible you will NEVER get a good idle...like your example with the 500cc and 250cc, cut the pulse timing down by half and it will idle like stock, right?

 

[Dexter]

And Dick Cheny isn't an asshole .

Politics, Religon and Engine Management. Things which should not be discussed on public forums.

 

[TurfBurn]

So aren't there parameters in the software to tell the EMS what size injectors you are using. I mean, im sure there is a way to tune that...i dont see how its possible you will NEVER get a good idle...like your example with the 500cc and 250cc, cut the pulse timing down by half and it will idle like stock, right?

Sure and the newer 32 bit processors like in the Microtech S series that just came out and is in the AEM can handle a bit better resolution. I believe I can make adjustments on my older Microtech down to about .03 ms. However, that's the finest adjustment I can go. If you can only adjust in .1ms increments that's all you can do.

And basically that is what happens, I probably run about half the duty cycle at idle. BUT each adjustment I make is going to be TWICE what it would be if I was using a 250cc injector because I do it directly by ms, and each increase decrease is twice as much for the 550 as far as fuel is concerned.

I DID get the car to run very well though on the 550's but it was a LOT of work and trial and error, and the first time I had ever tuned a car. There are ways to go about it... and I run a slightly higher idle (about 900 rpm). But to Nick's point, if you don't have a fine enough adjustment you WILL run like crap. And it's MUCH more sensitive doing those little adjustments.

It's like trying to pick up a piece of rice with an oven mitt instead of chopsticks. It can be done, but it takes some precision.

 

[TurfBurn]

Politics, Religon and Engine Management. Things which should not be discussed on public forums.

Amen... I mean Right on... I mean Microtech... I mean... aww s*** I'll just be quiet.

 

[Super Matty P]

Politics, Religon and Engine Management. Things which should not be discussed on public forums.

you forgot race also....very important Bryan (dark)

 

[TurfBurn]

p.s. 253whp @13psi is awesome man. I'd like to see more microtech info.

That was all Terry's doing, and obviously turbo, intercooler, and tune matter a lot. I fully believe that the AEM and the MPI are also "capable" of each achieving the same result in the hands of the same tuner on the same car.

The one thing I will argue for the Microtech is it is EASY. Others have commented as well but it is one of the easiest to manually tune standalone EMS's out there. It's visual/graphical, and numeric. It's plus minus tuning with readout of what you adjusted to numerically. It has a ton of modifiers to make the tune stick properly, but also doesn't cloud things with a bazillion features that you'll likely never touch.

it's a nice unit and should come out final pricing before summer and under 1400 is the hope/plan/process right now. First units go in cars just after New Years. We are trailing the others timeline wise, but we also just started development on it for ourselves in October.

 

[MPNick]

A) Dick Cheeny is an asshole.
B) Authorized Vendors can swear all they want.
C) A legit question now: Why do bigger injectors in the stock locations cause problem with ANY EMS?

16 bit, 32 bit, if and when 64 bit, is not the only thing. You only cut down the injector on time so much before it does not have a good spray pattern. It is how the injector works. Some injectors can work better then others. But they all have a point when the on time is to small and they do not spray well. Then your idle will suffer along with lowend throttle responce. This is why I say you cannot idle as good as the stock units. The fast 4 cylinder race cars and some street cars with big injectors idle at 1,500 to 2,000 rpm. Then you have to look at what are you going to do with tailpipe testing and OBDII. That all go'es out the window. If you are building a race car that you will drive on the street that may be fine. If you are building a fast street car for street and sometimes the trace why would you remove one of the best PCM ever made. The Ford PCM EEC-IV is one of the most power system ever put into a car. No aftermarkt ECM can ever match what it can do. With the MPI piggyback you have all the control that you would need for a street car and most weekend race cars.

I do not know of any tuner that trust any "self tune" option. So if you think you can press a buttom and your car is tuner, you are kidding yourself. Roni has had the AEM in her car for over 8 months now. The last time we spoke she was still working the system. I am sure she would have hit the self tune buttom a long time ago if it would have helped.

If you have a good tuner that can tune your car then you will have better luck with any of the aftermarket EMS. If you have never tuned a car before get a good calling plan for your phone.