NA Tech Race to 100whp per 1000cc's

[benjpi]

Of course, but I always have to consider that the car needs to pass PA emissions. I need to keep both cats and every-day drivability. The best ECU change I could hope for would be the MP3 ECU. My understanding of that ECU is that it MOSTLY increases the ignition advance. If I did increase the CR and use the MP3 ECU I might be pushing the limits of its range; previous work to raise the CR meant retarding the ignition for better power.

I'd be hoping that I could get the car to pass emissions with a milled head, a VTCS-removed intake manifold, MP3 ECU, and JDM intake & exhaust cams. I know it won't ever be a BP but it will help me stay entertained. I just like to fool with things. If I ever win the lottery, I'll turbocharge it then.

I'd hope that the increase in CR & the bowl blend might get me another 5 WHP. Again back to the specifics: with 0.025" off the head, does anyone know how close the valves might get to the pistons? Or would I have to clay-check everything? I would think that since the cams are OEM in other places AND 0.025" is the factory service limit that it would be fine.

 

[niky]

I'd actually focus on getting working engine management before going crazy on compression. You will gain a whole lot more ponies for your trouble!

 

[Installshield 2]

I haven't looked for smaller gaskets, but I'm certain that a .025" will be fine...The issue that this will bring up will be towards valve clearance if the timing belt breaks or slips...you definitely would be fine overall, there is plenty of room with the stock CR of an FS and US cams...but i can't guarantee that if your TB tensioner goes; the valves wouldn't get clipped...and those tensioners do go, i would suggest replacing that and the timing belt when you remove the head...just to be safe...

I can look up the exact specs when i get a chance, i have them somewhere...I never shaved the head, and used a stronger but stock sized head gasket for nearly 13:1 compression in a project I had going years ago with custom pistons...I used cams that had much more duration too, and was fine when the engine was timed properly...but if that belt ever slipped, it would grenade most definitely...

the numbers in my head are cloudy though, thats all I am saying...If you are talking about a mild head shave with a smaller gasket, it will be perfectly safe...just consider your own long term goals...shaving a head, as apposed to using higher compression pistons, can create other nuances that hurt power if you are not careful...shaving a head adjusts the shape of the bowl, affectively flattening it out...where as pistons do not...Its definitely easier to shave the head, just don't get too aggressive with it...flattening of the bowl also won't necessarily ruin the gains you are looking for (in fact it can help depending on the engine), but can start to do weird things when you are not able to adjust the timing and fuel accordingly...i'm saying that because we can't with the stock ECU...

out of curiosity, what part of PA are you in?...PA does emissions based on county...and while I know most counties force emissions, its not nearly as critical as you would think...its almost always just a test of the gas cap, and to make sure there is at least one catalyst in place...not hooking up a sniffer to register how out of whack the exhaust gas is...

i'm in Blair county, and have had a header installed for years...which removed the primary cat...not sure which county you are in, but I would be surprised if you couldn't get away with removal of one cat...unless you are in a Philly or something, which pushes Jersey like requirements iirc...

 

[CulRidr]

Holy s*** he's back! Welcome back IS2!!
(P.S.: his avatar says he's in Abington)

 

[LordWorm]

Installshield!... did you ever finish that damned protege? get a dyno for us?

Niky's advice on this is dead right - management first, if you intend on going wilder in the future. Otherwise, IHE and gtfo out this thread For the longest time i ran *nothing* but management. By pulling fuel and getting aggressive with the timing i was able to drastically increase the engine power overall, significantly improve power from the mid range to the top end, improve engine response, and get much better gas mileage.

Engine management requires nothing more then soldering skills - and a tuner. You dont need to crack the motor open or make extensive changes to the car. I'd suggest going with something aftermarket and setting up a reversible install so you can clear emissions in the future. Bit of extra effort but well worth it i think.

I'd then go for the customary intake/header/exhaust, and don't skim on the header. Pay a bit and get a nice long runner header going on. Mated to a 2.5in mandrel exhaust which will support more power than you are likely to make NA off this motor.

After that, you need to start considering your options....
- a rebuild will be necessary if winning this "race" is what you want...but if you just want a quick little NA rocket, this may not be neccessary.
- cams and perhaps a custom intake manifold would be beneficial. The stock intake manifold sucks. A ported 626 manifold at the very least i'd say. This would get you reasonably close to what Twilightprotege has...he made the choice to move to nitrous oxide with this setup - for a few hundred extra bucks he took a fairly mild mannered 140 odd horsepower NA car to a 240 hp nitrous powered rocket. Seriously worth considering if you are feeling "cheap"

 

[Installshield 2]

ha hey...sorry I missed that in his avatar...oops...

not to thread jack this, but its a 'yes and no' to the built FS engine...it was in the car on and off a few times...but was NEVER a permanent installation, was more just messing around with it...probably have about 3k miles on the engine now...I never fully settled on which EMS to go with, and was using only a borrowed Motec from school back then...which I don't have any more...And I only wired that into a separate harness for triggering and fuel...So no factory gauges worked, accessories were not working, etc...was pretty ghetto, but still fun...

But I still haven't gotten around to getting it permanently installed...or at least to a degree that is usable regularly...that Motec was pretty much a race only fully programmable EMS...and it always had trouble with cold starts, as the EMS had no trimming to change for a cold start...so everywhere I went I had to make sure I had a laptop, as sometimes it would take drastically changing things just to get it to fire up...

but when it did...it was great...My official dyno run, in the most drivable condition the car was in with that engine, was 191whp...I'll dig up the sheet, have it at my office somewhere...I was hitting 197whp before, but detonation was worrying me, and on that run the car wasn't even turning an alternator...so definitely not a regular condition...

but honestly what really happened was that my uncle pretty much let me take over his 1982 Porsche 928...My dad bought it in late 1981, 2 years before I was born...then sold it to his brother in 1983...and my uncle kept it garaged for the past 17 years nearly...38,000 miles...and in near perfect shape...just changing a few electronics (using an 86 computer now) and some mild exhaust upgrades and its at around 270whp...and a ton more torque...That thing quickly turned into the car i'd spend my time messing around with, as little upgrades yield massive power gains as anyone knows about early 80's V8's...especially the type that are capable of revving...So this put me in a spot where I needed the P5 for more daily driving, so I've had the regular FS in it for the past 1.5 years or so...

And sadly now i'm all about these recent KL swaps guys have been doing...I owned a 93 probe GT before my P5...and always loved that V6, and was very close to swapping in a KLZE in that before i bought a P5...now that guys have done it, and it seems relatively cheap and easy...I may do that...The money it will take to get a full standalone and all the tuning necessary to get that FS running reliably through a full season is almost what it takes to drop in a much more liveable 200+hp v6...and I would replace some parts in the car that already have 130,000 miles (namely the gearbox)...

so sorry for jacking this up...good to see some of you are still around...the P5 isn't going anywhere soon, i'm not selling it or anything...its use has changed slightly though...the idea of an extremely peaky, crazy high compression 4 cylinder isn't as appealing to me as it once was...

 

[CulRidr]

So do you still have the engine though? What ever happened to the completely custom internals? Those with some twiggys, a properly flowing head and a tuned intake/header, and an awesome EMS would be simply screaming eh?

 

[Installshield 2]

yep still has all that...Custom rods, pins, and pistons...all forged aluminum...light as hell...I increased the rod length by moving the pin position up on the custom pistons, which themselves had race crowns and where much higher compression...I used gapless rings from a local machine shop too...

so it was higher compression, and the assembly had a higher rod ratio...The engine was also bored slightly, but still kept overall displacement at 2.0L (it was just over 2000cc's iirc, where stock was 1991 I think?)...I haven't looked at these numbers in years, since I was in school...

the assembly would easily hit 8000rpm though without trouble, and that was primarily where the power gains came from...I spun it on a bench brake machine up to 8300 rpm multiple times...which is a true test of an engines aptitude with piston acceleration...as TDC with no compression stroke over and over will quickly show whether or not the internals are up to it...Had new custom cams, and removed the VTCS from the intake manifold...but other than that the head was left alone...I was looking into getting a fully flowed head with larger intake valves to help flatten out the curve a little...as the way the engine is now its literally on or off...feels no different below 5000 rpm than stock really...which was good, torque didn't get gutted low end most likely because of the high compression...but after that it almost feels like a Honda K20's iVTec system...when it starts to breath right it all comes together, makes a lot more noise, and feels more alive...but then around 8100 rpm it falls flat on its face...the cam proflie loses scavenging at that point, and the head overall is simply not that great for breathing at that rpm...

its a fun project...Just never got around to really completing it and make the car feel stock with that engine...I always hated the electronic side of this...hated having cluster problems that I simply didn't no where to start to fix...i've gotten a lot better at wiring though since then, or at least understand it a lot more...so when I do get around to completing either that FS, or a KLZE swap...I won't be nearly as intimidated as I was before...

I still have, which I used on that engine also, a full hand welded JDM Mazdaspeed Header...its has much longer primaries than even those available for the US...but required a custom made mid pipe...I also used a full RB cat-back with it, and had a no-cat mid pipe to go along with it...the RB's ID isn't that great for 8000 rpm, but I figured the smaller ID would help with lower end torque...which was what I was worried about the most...I could have got a bit more power from a slightly larger exhaust, but would have lost more than that lower down...The best part by far of this setup, even if it wasn't ideal for peak power...was the sound...no cats on a high revving iron blocked FS, but still with a meaty cat-back is a great combination...No tinny rattles or anything, just a really deep growl low end that started to sing appropriately when the revs climbed...it never sounded from the outside like some wild beast, and a lot of people would ask if it had a V6...and a few thinking it had a small displacement V8?...

So you can see the overall problem I had with my goals...i wasn't really after peak Hp...but built an engine that was pretty much only good at that...but I also wanted it in a 2700lb car that would regularly carry 5 people around...and I always wanted the car overall to be mostly stock on the inside..I never cared for aftermarket gauges and tachs, etc....So the easy part was getting the car tuned at WOT to give the most peak hp...the hard part was getting it finished and drivable and still have enough useful torque to get around in slower traffic...let alone start when it was under 45 degrees out...This is the primary reason that V6 sounds so great to me right now, as i'll never go turbo in a protege...I could easily trash the built FS's peak hp (almost out of the box), but with WAY more usable power over the whole curve...would be a lot more fun overall imo...

 

[CulRidr]

So with the custom cams (awesome), what was your idle like? And the engine, is it out of the car now with a stock replacement in its place, just sitting around waiting to scream again?

It was so cool reading about this when I had my engine rebuild last year... wishing I had the resources to get that type of work done. Koodos to you for still being around and contributing your knowledge/experience to the community

 

[Installshield 2]

thanks man...

yeah its on a crate at my dad's house in his basement...I could put in my basement i guess haha, but I don't have my own garage, so I would never swap it in where I live...

Idle was pretty lumpy, especially when it was cold...from the outside it sounded like it was ok, pretty chunky and nice...but on the inside it was annoying haha, as the AWR urethane mounts didn't help (the hardest they had at the time)...I have a 9lb flywheel on it too, so it would rev blazingly fast because of that and the light weight internals...I always loved that...its something I always noticed, but obviously even more when i put the stocker back in...

so yeah the engine in there now is the stock FS that came with the car...The whole thing started when i was working on a bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering at Penn State...I bought the P5 when I started school around late 2001...A friend of mine also had a P5, that was nearly split in half when it rolled out of his apartment complex and was broad sided (true story, he left it in neutral and no parking brake by accident...got out of the car, and watched as a Ford F350 super duty from a local landscaping company showed it his business end)...I almost immediately bought it from the junk yard for $400...with the intent of only having a pretty much new engine bay for spare parts...I sourced the engine from that, but had a few other options kicking around at the time...

a year or two later I took an engineering elective on IC engine design...and met some grad students that were into cars as well...a few of which could get credits for basically building a race engine...we had to come up with the stock and parts...but where allowed to use pretty much all of the universities testing and machine equipment...that was the big part of it, basically given millions of dollars of equipment to do all this on...and get credits doing it...

so for a full semester I spent almost every evening in there with these guys playing around with the design and numbers...and sourced some aluminum to cut the parts out of...That was the easy part...Money to do the rest and getting it in the car was the hard part...

so we got one made...and I never had to touch the stock engine that came with my P5...We kind of had to pioneer the FS in this way, as all the racing FS's from the likes of Tri-point engineering didn't have publicly available specs...so without all those crazy testing rigs (namely the brake tester) we wouldn't have gotten anywhere...its a machine that will spin a bottom end with an electric motor...and simulate engine stress under engine braking, which is 95% of the time when a racing engine will pop...no load TDC is a nightmare in this regard...and it was the only real way we had to test how high we could rev a built FS...

I remember at the time I got a lot of credit for it, but it really wasn't me...I mean I understood what we were doing, and did the math myself for everything...but it was PSU that made it happen because they had the equipment needed...but it ended up being awesome because even a lot of other students and professors would come to check it out every so often...it was like a real racing pit crew...even though there was no team or actual purpose to what we made...

but like i mentioned...I later grew tired of it...not really in a bad way...but graduated, got a job, did all that...and now have been sent to law school through my job...It didn't really change my interests, but I was spending so much time thinking about it and saving money for it...but still getting frustrated with it not being complete...I just back burnered it a few years ago...especially considering most of the fun driving I was doing was in that Porsche...I should have bought another cheap car to get around in back then, so I could have the P5 sit for a while when I got the time to complete it...but having to put a whole weekend aside JUST to swap an engine and still not have everything i needed to have it done completely, was never great to me...

 

[LordWorm]

I get being tired of the FS - its fundimentally the *wrong* engine to do this to. Very cool that you did it...but given an FE3N will do it so much easier and be so much nicer to drive...and the KLZE, theres almost a formula (and certainly more aftermarket support) for pushing out big NA numbers...
Trail blazing on a shopping trolley engine with poor fundimentals is a horribly expensive and in the end not that gratifying an endeavour...

If you do half of what you did to the FS to a KL, you'll win this thread

 

[Installshield 2]

yeah, although to me its never been the actual engine...The FS is ok for mild NA builds...you can easily spin a stock one to 7300 rpm or so (which is actually where the FS-ZE fuel cut was iirc in OBD I JDM models)...and with a set of cams (as the engine could physically spin that high, but it won't make anything happen) and the normal bolt ons...it would be a lot of fun, and more powerful than a lot of 2.0L NA engines...but that comes with a massive 'if'...that being if we had an easy effective way to manipulate the stock computer, or replace...there are options, but none are easy, or even affordable...

Its the stock computer that is a killer, especially for the US models...its an absolute gestapo of engine management that runs WAY too rich, with WAY too little timing advance...and does absolutely nothing right for making power...or gas mileage for that matter...I could clunk around town in the built FS with a poorly tuned motec (poorly tuned only for partial throttle) and was still getting slightly better than that of the stock computer and stock engine...if there is one part of 3rd gen proteges that I absolutely hate...its the stock ecu...

Sadly though this is the one area that never really got addressed by the protege's aftermarket community...An easy fix, be it a complete standalone kit that was easy to install or tune, or some way of 'cracking' the factory EEC-V...It never happened...a few one off standalone's were available, but always with complex wiring, and no real set of base maps to get things going easily...or at least that i came across at the time...

thats not anyone's fault...but it made NA protege's pretty much dead on arrival...if you are going to do NA, you HAVE to address the engine management with these cars...that could be the only modification you make to an NA FS...and it would be the biggest single gain most likely...

and that is where these KL swaps sound so great to me...You effectively turn your car into a OBD I system, albeit only for engine triggering and fuel...but that is a much more flexible setup that allows piggy backs, afpr's, etc....and you start with a working ECU programmed properly for that specific engine (the JDM KL ecu's)...and from the likes of these swap threads guys keep putting up, it appears to be even simpler wiring than hacking in your own full standalone...or at least you do pretty much the same thing, but have factory maps to start with, and factory wiring diagrams to follow...which helps tremendously...

 

[LordWorm]

The engine doesn't help. The head is rubbish, the intake manifold is the most lossy intake manifold i've ever seen...and massively undersquare engines are difficult to make rev...

Chuck a turbo on the motor and its an animal, but its an expensive engine to get to do anything even half impressive all motor.

Glad to hear you hate the computer - adds some credence to my recommendation that anyone doing ANYTHING with the car NA to go and get a programmable ECU.

yeah, although to me its never been the actual engine...The FS is ok for mild NA builds...you can easily spin a stock one to 7300 rpm or so (which is actually where the FS-ZE fuel cut was iirc in OBD I JDM models)...and with a set of cams (as the engine could physically spin that high, but it won't make anything happen) and the normal bolt ons...it would be a lot of fun, and more powerful than a lot of 2.0L NA engines...but that comes with a massive 'if'...that being if we had an easy effective way to manipulate the stock computer, or replace...there are options, but none are easy, or even affordable...

Its the stock computer that is a killer, especially for the US models...its an absolute gestapo of engine management that runs WAY too rich, with WAY too little timing advance...and does absolutely nothing right for making power...or gas mileage for that matter...I could clunk around town in the built FS with a poorly tuned motec (poorly tuned only for partial throttle) and was still getting slightly better than that of the stock computer and stock engine...if there is one part of 3rd gen proteges that I absolutely hate...its the stock ecu...

Sadly though this is the one area that never really got addressed by the protege's aftermarket community...An easy fix, be it a complete standalone kit that was easy to install or tune, or some way of 'cracking' the factory EEC-V...It never happened...a few one off standalone's were available, but always with complex wiring, and no real set of base maps to get things going easily...or at least that i came across at the time...

thats not anyone's fault...but it made NA protege's pretty much dead on arrival...if you are going to do NA, you HAVE to address the engine management with these cars...that could be the only modification you make to an NA FS...and it would be the biggest single gain most likely...

and that is where these KL swaps sound so great to me...You effectively turn your car into a OBD I system, albeit only for engine triggering and fuel...but that is a much more flexible setup that allows piggy backs, afpr's, etc....and you start with a working ECU programmed properly for that specific engine (the JDM KL ecu's)...and from the likes of these swap threads guys keep putting up, it appears to be even simpler wiring than hacking in your own full standalone...or at least you do pretty much the same thing, but have factory maps to start with, and factory wiring diagrams to follow...which helps tremendously...

 

[benjpi]

I haven't looked for smaller gaskets, but I'm certain that a .025" will be fine...The issue that this will bring up will be towards valve clearance if the timing belt breaks or slips...you definitely would be fine overall, there is plenty of room with the stock CR of an FS and US cams...but i can't guarantee that if your TB tensioner goes; the valves wouldn't get clipped...and those tensioners do go, i would suggest replacing that and the timing belt when you remove the head...just to be safe...

I can look up the exact specs when i get a chance, i have them somewhere...I never shaved the head, and used a stronger but stock sized head gasket for nearly 13:1 compression in a project I had going years ago with custom pistons...I used cams that had much more duration too, and was fine when the engine was timed properly...but if that belt ever slipped, it would grenade most definitely...

the numbers in my head are cloudy though, thats all I am saying...If you are talking about a mild head shave with a smaller gasket, it will be perfectly safe...just consider your own long term goals...shaving a head, as apposed to using higher compression pistons, can create other nuances that hurt power if you are not careful...shaving a head adjusts the shape of the bowl, affectively flattening it out...where as pistons do not...Its definitely easier to shave the head, just don't get too aggressive with it...flattening of the bowl also won't necessarily ruin the gains you are looking for (in fact it can help depending on the engine), but can start to do weird things when you are not able to adjust the timing and fuel accordingly...i'm saying that because we can't with the stock ECU...

out of curiosity, what part of PA are you in?...PA does emissions based on county...and while I know most counties force emissions, its not nearly as critical as you would think...its almost always just a test of the gas cap, and to make sure there is at least one catalyst in place...not hooking up a sniffer to register how out of whack the exhaust gas is...

i'm in Blair county, and have had a header installed for years...which removed the primary cat...not sure which county you are in, but I would be surprised if you couldn't get away with removal of one cat...unless you are in a Philly or something, which pushes Jersey like requirements iirc...

I live in Montgomery County, just a few miles from Philadelphia. Emissions suck here.

Thanks for the information on the heads. With regard to the chamber shape - I guess I'd have to look at the stock head & pistons to see. On the bike, it was possible to basically match the piston crown to the chamber, even after the head was shaved. It has a bit less than 0.020" squish cold, but with air cooled cylinders it opens up a bit more. I can still run street gas on it.

The best I could hope for regarding ECU would be the MP3 map. That seems like a timing patch though, just advancing the ignition to get a bit more power. If I raised the CR (even the 0.75 pt from the head shave) I'd worry about knock. The car won't ever have a standalone unless it someday becomes a track car.

I always figured that the close-coupled cat had to just kill the motor. I can't really get rid of the two cats, but I think on the turbo car the primary cat is further downstream. It might be possible to fit a custom header in between that still has longer (any) runners than the stock setup, but probably not still the long-tube type.

There's nothing I'd like more than to build a 200hp motor, but such an engine would never see the street here. Add in the three kids and it gets less likely to happen under this roof. Lordworm: if you're buyin', I'll get started tomorrow. Otherwise, my apologies for polluting your thread with my more modest goals.

Installshield - BSME 1990, Penn State.

 

[LordWorm]

There's nothing I'd like more than to build a 200hp motor, but such an engine would never see the street here. Add in the three kids and it gets less likely to happen under this roof. Lordworm: if you're buyin', I'll get started tomorrow. Otherwise, my apologies for polluting your thread with my more modest goals.

I'm suggesting you go start another thread - for your modest goals, i think compression is the wrong place to spend your money. It will not yield massive results on its own - and there are bigger, cheaper fish to fry on the motor. A long tube header, a cold air intake, a 2.25in mandrel bent exhaust (something nice, off the shelf, like the racing beat exhaust sounds REALLY good) and you'll get nice gains.

I dont know the MP3 ecu, but my understanding is that it drives as much timing as it can into the motor and relies on the knock sensor to retard....as opposed to having a timing map... this may be the best ECU if you are upping the compression. The motor is rather resistant to knock (probably the biggest benefit of an undersquare engine with a low rod ratio) so upping the compression moderately shouldn't induce knock, especially if you are using quality fuels. I run a huge amount of advance over stock timing, and i have never had a hint of knock on the stock pistons (and AUDM pistons are higher compression than USDM to begin with).

If knock becomes a major concern, you can go ahead and get a water/methanol injection kit - which will help keep the burn cool and increase the resistance to knock (water wont ignite at all, so in effect it has inifinate octane)....

Modest/basic addons for the car make it very fun to drive, but not thrilling in the power stakes... i'd go I.H.E, a few other bits and pieces (perhaps some nice mild reground cams, and a ported 626 intake manifold) - and then concentrate on suspension and such...the cars true calling is handling, and it becomes a demon in the twisty stuff once you put some decent suspension upgrades into it.

 

[br289165]

10.4 JDM's head milled .050", ported, Supertech springs, titanium retainers.Have a set of 11:1 Wisecos with raised pins and long rods still in the box.
Check out some pics,been real cold here so I haven't been working on it much lately;

 

[JKPgt96]

...fwiw, it is not that easy to make 250whp in a KL..that feat is being grossly underestimated....though easier than 200whp in a FS for sure.

 

[AusOrion]

10.4 JDM's head milled .050", ported, Supertech springs, titanium retainers.Have a set of 11:1 Wisecos with raised pins and long rods still in the box.
Check out some pics,been real cold here so I haven't been working on it much lately;

Which long rods have you got?

 

[justanothermp5]

probably K1, there the only company i know of that makes long rods for the FS

 

[LordWorm]

no doubt...getting a specific output of 100hp/L on any NA motor is a pretty mean feat...but you are starting from a much better base on the KL...a motor that likes to rev, with heads that breathe and a decent (compared to the FS) aftermarket.

To do it for the FS, you have to fabricate just about everything....