The end of high powered cars?

[happy and angry]

Solar, wind and hydro power are clean. Thermal is clean as well and virtually unlimited with virtually no impact to the planet.

At what point did I say they weren't clean? I simply said there is a cost associated with them. Solar, wind and hydro power still have an affect on the world at large.

Wind farms convert wind energy to electricity, which has the effect of taking energy out of weather systems. If that effect becomes wide spread enough to alter weather patterns or precipitation patterns and it does things like displace crop land, it is not an effective means of energy production. There is some concern that enough wind farms will start having these sorts of effects.

Solar is great, but there are some plans to create large solar electric farms, as well. To meet the energy demands of North America they will have to be enormous While this will generate plenty of electricity, one thing solar panels do is create a lot of heat, as they act like a black body (sort of like pavement does only warmer). In the same way that large paved areas and cities alter weather patterns by radiating a lot of heat, so would large solar farms. It also has the downside of currently also being dependent on semi-precious metals which are, again, non-renewable.

Energy is never, ever, free. Do not asume words like "unlimited" and "no impact on the planet." We can't predict the side effects of a lot of what we're doing. A wind farm put up next year might be useless in 10 years as wind patterns shift because of climate change. Taking energy out of as large and complex a system as earth is can have unpredictable and unintended consequences. I'm not saying we shouldn't explore them as options, simply that we should be smart about it and not take the "green" nature of these technologies for granted. We may not always see the outcomes we expect. There is always a cost, no matter what we do.

 

[martispeed]

^^^ You know all of that is soooo true..

Everything will have an equal an opposite reaction. I know that has to do with physics, but think about it, as we "fix" or "take care" of a problem another one is created. Usually worse haha.

 

[choprdav]

It is true! The only way to stop it is to stop having an effect on the planet. But since everything we do has an effect, the only solution is to remove the people from the equation completely. I, for one, don't like that solution. Plus it may not even work. Maybe people having an effect on the planet is the effect the planet is supposed to be experiencing. But how would we know since we won't be here to see the outcome if we're gone.....

 

[Peter B]

At what point did I say they weren't clean? I simply said there is a cost associated with them. Solar, wind and hydro power still have an affect on the world at large.
.

And I quote "Current sources of electric are not clean." You didn't specify which were or which weren't. I read that to mean none of them are. I was merely clarifying with my previous post that some sources are in fact clean.

Before you go stating wind farms and solar plants will cause changes in the weather, I suggest you research exactly how much energy our atmosphere and weather systems produce, and how much we take out. Global warming caused by cars and fossil fuel plants and other sources of pollution will change our weather patterns much faster then any wind farm ever will. We would need to create vast, wind farms to really drain that much energy from our weather system. Sure they can have an effect, but you have to weigh your options. Solar plants do have the potential to increase temperatures in their local environment, but no more so then a neighborhood of black roof tops, or your average block in a metropolitan areal like NYC.

The point of all of this isn't to have no effect on the planet. Its too late for that. The point is to minimize the negative side effects as much as possible.

 

[mikesul]

Still unsolved is the efficient transmission of power (electric) from whatever generating source to the end user. A lot of power is wasted getting it to us. If only there was "broadcast energy" as scifi writers have envisioned.

 

[dkswim]

sorry i dont belive in global warming. actualy im not sorry. i do belive we need to conserve though.

 

[irnbru83]

Global warming is not the main issue. Running out of a valuable resource some time in the future is.

I work in the oil industry, so I pay attention to various predictions on how much recoverable oil is out there. Not like this is secret information by any means. What is not immediately obvious is the level of depletion at which it becomes a problem.

You think vast world wars will only start once there is zero oil left? No, sir.

 

[Hank3]

Not to throw a kink into this discussion, but The Mechanic column on edmunds wrote something that somewhat relates. Take it with a grain of salt - he's kind of what I'd like to think, a shock journalist. I'm not really taking one side or the other, just thought some of you might find it an interesting read.

 

[Peter B]

Still unsolved is the efficient transmission of power (electric) from whatever generating source to the end user. A lot of power is wasted getting it to us. If only there was "broadcast energy" as scifi writers have envisioned.

That is true. But no one wants to live next to the source of their power. The broadcast idea is cool but has some obvious flaws to it. Interference being the big one. Keep in mind radio stations are more or less the technology you are talk about, but on a smaller scale. None the less the radio waves are just energy. They say living near power lines increases your chances of getting cancer. If they broadcast it, we all would effectively be living under power lines. Plus our current methods of broadcasting would mean you would have to blanket an area, which would also waste a lot (my house needs power, my lawn does not ). It seems it would be somethign you would have to be able to focus in a beam. Replacing the main transmission lines with a broadcast system that transmits from source to a local distribution center in your town or city would be a neat idea. It would be interesting to see if it really is a feasible idea.

sorry i dont belive in global warming. actualy im not sorry. i do belive we need to conserve though.

...then you are a fool. The majority of of the scientific community now accepts global warming as fact. The cause is still up for debate, but is no secret all those SUVs and land yachts aren't helping the situation at all. Basic laws of chemistry and physics tell us that. But its cool, spit in the face of modern science.

 

[mikesul]

That is true. But no one wants to live next to the source of their power. The broadcast idea is cool but has some obvious flaws to it. Interference being the big one. Keep in mind radio stations are more or less the technology you are talk about, but on a smaller scale. None the less the radio waves are just energy. They say living near power lines increases your chances of getting cancer. If they broadcast it, we all would effectively be living under power lines. Plus our current methods of broadcasting would mean you would have to blanket an area, which would also waste a lot (my house needs power, my lawn does not ). It seems it would be somethign you would have to be able to focus in a beam. Replacing the main transmission lines with a broadcast system that transmits from source to a local distribution center in your town or city would be a neat idea. It would be interesting to see if it really is a feasible idea.

One scenario is large solar "farms" in orbit, beaming energy down to collectors somewhere safe- like the desert. Again that power has to be distributed to where it's needed.


...then you are a fool. The majority of of the scientific community now accepts global warming as fact. The cause is still up for debate, but is no secret all those SUVs and land yachts aren't helping the situation at all. Basic laws of chemistry and physics tell us that. But its cool, spit in the face of modern science.

 

[Peter B]

I have heard that idea and it sounds promising if we could develop the technology, but that is years out.

 

[Sphincter]

Not to throw a kink into this discussion, but The Mechanic column on edmunds wrote something that somewhat relates. Take it with a grain of salt - he's kind of what I'd like to think, a shock journalist. I'm not really taking one side or the other, just thought some of you find find it an interesting read.

"Maybe your best investment for the future is a Mazdaspeed 3 tucked away in a corner of your garage up on blocks, ready to be unpacked and driven when it's impossible to get a car that much fun anymore."

Nice!

 

[Hank3]

Nice!

I thought that line was pretty cool, too. Regardless of what happens to the car industry, it would be neat to have the Speed3 become even a rarer breed...in a corner.

 

[Peter B]

I would love to buy a speed to tuck away for a little while. That and a EVO X

 

[happy and angry]

And I quote "Current sources of electric are not clean." You didn't specify which were or which weren't. I read that to mean none of them are. I was merely clarifying with my previous post that some sources are in fact clean.

In a purely pedantic sense, no, none of them are "clean." We have to mine and manufacture solar panels and wind generators, transport them to locations where they will be used, install them, etc etc. They are not clean. They are cleaner.

Before you go stating wind farms and solar plants will cause changes in the weather, I suggest you research exactly how much energy our atmosphere and weather systems produce, and how much we take out. Global warming caused by cars and fossil fuel plants and other sources of pollution will change our weather patterns much faster then any wind farm ever will. We would need to create vast, wind farms to really drain that much energy from our weather system. Sure they can have an effect, but you have to weigh your options. Solar plants do have the potential to increase temperatures in their local environment, but no more so then a neighborhood of black roof tops, or your average block in a metropolitan areal like NYC.

You are missing my point, buddy. Any source of energy will have a cost associated with it. We can't always predict what that cost might be, especially when our new means of energy production depend on an incredibly complex system. I am not saying it's dirty, or bad, or evil to harness wind power, simply that if we are going to do so we should a.) do so intelligently and b.) resist the urge to see wind (or any other 'clean' source of energy) as some sort of panacea for our energy needs that couldn't possibly have unforeseen consequences.

If you want to read more about wind effects specifically pick any of the following links:

Google!

You'll find that the studies and articles discuss research ranging from unrealistic assumptions as to the size of wind farms simply to illustrate a point to more local meteorological effects.

I don't even know why you're arguing with me here. If you've actually been reading what I've been saying, we don't actually disagree on any major point. We're making progress in the right direction to finding a sustainable way of meeting our energy needs, and I'm all for it.

 

[happy and angry]

sorry i dont belive in global warming. actualy im not sorry. i do belive we need to conserve though.

Global climate change is scientifically irrefutable. Congratulations, you've just joined another select group of people known to me on the wrong side of reality:

Best friends forever!

Now if you wanted to argue weather or not climate change is anthropogenic or not, I think there is room for debate there (although very, very little). But for that debate to happen you'd have to actually be open to the idea that you don't actually know better than the well supported, well documented, well understood research about the nature and reality of climate change.

 

[Peter B]

I don't even know why you're arguing with me here. If you've actually been reading what I've been saying, we don't actually disagree on any major point. We're making progress in the right direction to finding a sustainable way of meeting our energy needs, and I'm all for it.

Im not trying to argue with you. My apologies if it comes off that way. Although I do think the issue of wind farms changing climates is not much to worry about. Im trying to find the study I read about how much energy there is to harness in the wind that blows across the midwest. While I agree they cause turbulence, from what i have read the effect is only on climate within a few miles of the wind farm. Im sure some of those studies have said this, but the easy solution to all that more efficient, aerodynamically sound blades which creates less disturbance. I would like to see a study done by some aero-engineers on the wake those things produce and how bad it really is. Im sure the wake is more noticeable when you have several windmills in a given area vs one or two on their own.

 

[Peter B]

Best friends forever!

Ok I just clicked on that site ....please tell my its a hoax?

 

[dkswim]

how can i belive in global warming when the last fey years temps have been cooler localy we meet quiet a few low temp records. hell we had snow a couple times this year when thats very abnormal this area. how is it settled when a lot of major scientest dissagree with the science of it. the world has been hotter and it has been colder before. what is the main gas everyone says causes global warming? CO2. how come during the ice age we had some of the highest CO2 levals? im open to ideas im not nieve enough to not think we as the human race have and are changing the world.

read this http://www.heartland.org/books/PDFs/SurfaceStations.pdf
about validity of temp records.

 

[oaklandopen]

global warming is a myth....like dry land



but seriously if ppl want to stop all the carbon dioxide from going into the atmosphere then you have to stop things from dying and decaying, stop volcanos and geysers from doing stuff, and stop cutting down the plants that convert co2 into o2. and cow farts make up a great percentage of the methane pollutants around the earth