Need quick timing belt help!!

[rbianco3]

Odd Situation - Contradicts Manual

Is this right? The both look open to me.

Novice, this is how I initially had timing set up and I wasn't even close to starting. Got backfire through the intake and the motor rolled over very inconsistently-- obvious out of time.

Now this is the correct setting per manual and I do not doubt the manual however it didn't work for my car, nor Jesus Mans' car. There is either some variation of the motor for this year, or a crazy coincidence that both Jesus Man and myself have something wrong with our engine that makes it run with the intake and exhaust at exactly 180 degrees different than shown in your photo. With lobes turned 180 degrees both valves would still be in the closed position but the intake valves would be about to open v.s. in the picture as shown both by your and my posts; the exhaust is about to open.

Here is a URL to my initial thread before I had head heat treated for straightening, resurfaced, and valve job (photos) http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123727596 which looks like yours, this setting would not start even after I moved the timing mark so it was at 0 degrees BTDC instead of 10 degrees shown in the picture. Best of luck to you.

 

[rbianco3]

I'm all ears. If I indeed had them 180* off, what would be happening? I am more than happy to test a theory or two that would prove I am 180* out.

J.D.

I'd be willing to try something too to get to the bottom of the situation.
I've been running weeks on the 180 degree differences from manual setting and the car is still running perfectly.

Are there identification marks on the motor that will confirm the year/size/model?

 

[jesus_man]

Is this right? The both look open to me.

So in this picture, the "I" cam is at the 3 o'clock position and the "E" is at the 9? I honestly don't remember now how mine is setup.

I am sure tho, that the lobe needs to be pushing DOWN the valve to open it. Right now your intake has closed and your exhaust is about to open. Try both cams 180 from where they are. You're not going to hurt anything. If it sounds like it wants to fire, you're off a couple teeth. I think I remember having to apply some pressure to the cams to keep them in the right position WHILE I put the belt on.

J.D.

 

[Novice]

Thank you for the replies. I've been trying to get this thing going for about 2 weeks now....

Here are my timing marks when the cams are in that position. I know the intake side is off 1/2 teeth. But like you stated I hold it in position while sliding the belt on. It doesn't even sound close to starting like this. Very easy crank like there is no compression. I'll flip them to the outside today and snap a picture for everyone.

 

[Novice]

Put the marks to the outside, still no start. The cam lobes instead of being faced out are facing in. Should one be up/down ?

 

[jesus_man]

See Post #3. That is where mine have been for the last few thousand miles.

J.D.

 

[quick72toy]

Please forgive me guys new guy to this forum, but no stranger to cars and motors.
From what I understand of a 4 stroke engine (intake, compression, power, exhaust) you can have two TDC marks. One will be at the top of the compression stroke, and the other will be at the top of the exhaust stroke. The cams are moving at half the speed of the crank, so when the cams marks are facing out, you are just on the other crank stroke. Rotate the crank 360 deg, and see where the cam marks now line up to.
My other car has a Buick motor that has a cam position sensor that needs to be setup with the motor near TDC of the compression stroke. A lot of people make the mistake of lining up the crank pulley mark at TDC not realizing it is at TDC of the exhaust stroke.

I'm going to check the timing belt on my P5 today, and when I do, I'll verify if what I am saying is correct.

HTH

 

[primemover]

Newbe here with a side question:
I too have been having trouble getting the timing marks right on my Protege. I look forward to reading the resolution of the questions already opened here.

I have another question. The only reason I changed the timing belt was because the water pump needed to be replaced. Yes, I did have problems getting Top Dead Center established. And then the Haynes manual has the timing mark diagrams mis-identified. Given that this car was running great before the new timing belt and now that I have tried various timing marks on the I and E cams already... but the car not starting... Have I probably not done damage to the valves and just need to keep trying different timing marks and get the cam shaft lobes positioned for the first cylinder? I realize that valve damage ~could~ possibly happen, BUT I am wondering if valves were bent just from improper alignment.
I also have a 2000 Mazda Protege DX 1.6L, can you tell me if that engine is or is not an interfearance type engine?

Thanks!

 

[quick72toy]

My above post is confirmed.

 

[jesus_man]

My above post is confirmed.

I think that is what I did, but based mine on which valve was about to open. You want the intake valve opening at TDC.

Primemover - I doubt you have done any damage because it is a non-interference engine, meaning that if the timining belt breaks, the valves to not contact the piston.

J.D.

 

[iluvmacs]

Please forgive me guys new guy to this forum, but no stranger to cars and motors.
From what I understand of a 4 stroke engine (intake, compression, power, exhaust) you can have two TDC marks. One will be at the top of the compression stroke, and the other will be at the top of the exhaust stroke. The cams are moving at half the speed of the crank, so when the cams marks are facing out, you are just on the other crank stroke. Rotate the crank 360 deg, and see where the cam marks now line up to.
My other car has a Buick motor that has a cam position sensor that needs to be setup with the motor near TDC of the compression stroke. A lot of people make the mistake of lining up the crank pulley mark at TDC not realizing it is at TDC of the exhaust stroke.

I'm going to check the timing belt on my P5 today, and when I do, I'll verify if what I am saying is correct.

HTH

Yep. With the engine lined up this way and the timing belt installed, rotate the crank 1 rotation. you'll notice that the I and E are looking at each other.

On a SOHC engine I actually had the cam 180 degrees off. It cranked, fired, and revved until I turned the ignition off. That was wierd, but I spun the crank 1 rotation and everything worked.

 

[larson701]

I believe the manual is correct. The photos of a head in the previous posts appears to be correct. My photos show the relative positions of the cam sprockets from an engine that runs well. The notches in the sprocket rims need to be aligned, not the I and the E. In the other cam photos earlier in this thread, the valves are closed, as they should be, with the exhaust valve about to open with CW rotation of the engine. (Note that I have revised this post after looking at the cam photos and trying to confirm the engine rotation relative to the cam operation.) I believe that what happened on Jesus-man's and another engine was that the cams were installed 180 degrees off from the 'distributor' positioning, which is easy to do without a distributor rotor to check which spark plug will fire next.

I am trying to solve a noise and fuel economy issue and checked my cams as part of a list of things that could be the source of the issues. The engine runs good. The cam positions on my car do not appear to be an issue. If there was a problem and the engine was able to run, I would not expect either cam to be off more than one sprocket tooth.

I took a look at Jesus-man's description of the cam lobe position and his description appears to be incorrect. The #1 exhaust valve will be the next to open. TDC is the top of the compression stroke. The piston will travel downward and the exhaust valve will open somewhere near the bottom of the expansion stroke. As the piston travels upward, the combustion gases will be forced out. Near the top of the exhaust stroke, the exhaust valve will close and the intake valve will open. As the piston travels downward, air and fuel will be drawn into the cylinder. At the bottom of the intake stroke the intake valve closes. The piston travels upward, compressing the air and fuel. Near the top of the compression stoke, the spark plug fires once more, completing the 4-stroke cycle. This description is consistent with the manual and the photos of the lobe positions in earlier posts.

I probably just added to the confusion.