Problems with built motor

[kyle's protege5]

I just got my motor rebuild and various other upgrades done.

Big problem though.

After putting in the forged piston and rods, the motor seemed very tight. Guy who helped me rebuild the motor said it was not uncommon and said the assy lube he uses is on the sticky side.

Well after reinstalling the motor and putting all the new stuff on etc, when I went to set the timing, I could not turn the motor over with a wrench, plugs pulled, even with a 1' cheater. So I pulled the fuel pump fuse, and bumped the starter and the motor turned over. Well after setting the timing I had to turn it over 2 revolutiuons to check it again. I was off a tooth. So I reset it, tuned it over 2 more times, missed the mark, and had to turn it over 2 more times to line them up. I was on this time. On a whim I grabbed a wrench to just see if I could turn it by hand and it turned over with what seemed like a normal force now.

So I finish putting it all together, fill up all the fluids, pull the plugs and pump fuse, and proceed to bump the starter a few times to get some oil flowing around before I fired it up. Well my son had decide to clean my car all up inside for me, and had left the lights on inside so the battery was semi dead, so it turned over like 2-3 times and died.

So I throw it on the charger and try it again, 1-2 more turns then it just stops. No bang or clank, no grinding, just like the brakes are on and it wont turn over. Starter just goes click! ggrrooaann and the lights dim, but no turn over. I try it with the wrench on the crank, and no way am I moving it.

Now what!?!?

Rings were gapped with what kooldina told me to, can't remember what it was, but it was what he said to do, bearings were plasti-gauged and were within specs.

Only thing we can think of is, and I don't think this is it, when we took the stock rods out, the notch in the bearings were on the same side, and had to be because of the pin in the stock caps. The pauters did not have a pin and could go on either way. The guy who helped me, put the notches oposite of each other. said he wasnt sure what he was thinking. there were no pins, so it seemed logical to put them on oposite sides. Brain fart.

pulling the whole thing again, would really suck.

HELP!!!

 

[igdrasil]

Well. That doesnt sounds right. Rods must have the hinge or whatever is called (check pic). If it doesnt, its a manufacture problem, very rare.
So you locked engine sounds like a bearing clearance.

Pull it out, please take pics if possible. Check if the crankshaft is not damaged. Get new bearings. If you can, get a micrometer and measure bearing clearance.

 

[kyle's protege5]

Well. That doesnt sounds right. Rods must have the hinge or whatever is called (check pic). If it doesnt, its a manufacture problem, very rare.

yes the pauters had the notches in them, and in your pic you have them on the same side. the guy who put it together for me said he put them on oposite sides. there was nothing saying which way, no pin to make it go one way or the other, and to him it made sense to put them oposite.

So you locked engine sounds like a bearing clearance.

Pull it out, please take pics if possible. Check if the crankshaft is not damaged. Get new bearings. If you can, get a micrometer and measure bearing clearance.

that was what i was gonna do, if i had too, pull it all and measure everything. I'll take pics and put up numbers i get.

One big problem though. you think i can do all this with out pulling the head? I dont want to have to spend another $100 on a head gasket and wait 6 weeks for it.

 

[iracemine]

sounds like a nightmare. last motor i built they were on opisite sides. it ran fine

 

[Kooldino]

You mean the notches for the rod bearings to go into?

The way to line up the rods is based on the text that's stamped into either side of them.

Are you sure you installed the pistons in the right direction? Are you sure there is no valve contact?

 

[TheMAN]

the head HAS to come out due to the oil squirters for the pistons
seeing as the engine hasn't really been run yet, the head gasket should be reusable

but DO check and make sure the crank is not scored and make sure the correct size bearings are used

 

[kyle's protege5]

You mean the notches for the rod bearings to go into?
The way to line up the rods is based on the text that's stamped into either side of them.

so with the text thats stamped on them, are the notches on the same or oposite sides?

Are you sure you installed the pistons in the right direction?

Now that i dont know, i was stuck scraping and cleaning the pan and windage tray while he put the pistons and rods together. How could they be in backwards? is there a front and back to them? I'll have to call and ask him

Are you sure there is no valve contact?

I would have to say no, as it turned over 4-5 times before becoming stuck.

 

[kyle's protege5]

the head HAS to come out due to the oil squirters for the pistons
seeing as the engine hasn't really been run yet, the head gasket should be reusable

I knew the head had to come off to pull the pistons, but i was hoping to be able to either turn the caps around or put in new bearings if needed without pulling it.

but DO check and make sure the crank is not scored and make sure the correct size bearings are used

when we put it together we plasti-gauged them and they were in spec. we did not mic everything like ingrasil said, which i will do this time.

 

[iracemine]

it seems that if the pistons were in the wrong direction you would have contact with the crank with the first rotation.

and if you plasti-gauge them why would the bearing be of the wrong size???

this is also a non-self destructing engine so the valves never hit the pistons (unless they are some weird high compresion pistons, or some ****** up high lift cams)

the only thing I can think of then is that if it could make a full rotation with out obstuction but then only get worse with more rotations is rings. as they scraped the s*** out of the walls bringing in more material to make the gap even less creating finally sezure?? maby???

 

[kyle's protege5]

it seems that if the pistons were in the wrong direction you would have contact with the crank with the first rotation.

and if you plasti-gauge them why would the bearing be of the wrong size???

this is also a non-self destructing engine so the valves never hit the pistons (unless they are some weird high compresion pistons, or some ****** up high lift cams)

the only thing I can think of then is that if it could make a full rotation with out obstuction but then only get worse with more rotations is rings. as they scraped the s*** out of the walls bringing in more material to make the gap even less creating finally sezure?? maby???

I would have agree with everything you said. not sure about the ring idea though since i know they were gapped right, and they seemed to go in ok.

 

[Fudgie]

Have you begun the disassembly process yet?

 

[xelderx]

During one of my rebuilds I was putting the rod/piston assemblies in and found a problem. Once I basically got the bottom end assembled I tried to turn the crank, but it was very difficult. I started relieving the torque on each of the rod caps one at a time and trying to turn the crank again. I found one rod that was causing the problem. I put that piston on a completely different rod (I have plenty of spares) with the new bearings and everything worked fine after that. It must have just been an oblong rod.

 

[igdrasil]

Yeah, you should turn the crank every time you torque any bolt...rod, crank, oil pump, etc. Same with the head

 

[kyle's protege5]

Have you begun the disassembly process yet?

hope to pull the motor this weekend. Have to wait for my buddy to get his motor back in his gtx, so i can use his hoist again.

Yeah, you should turn the crank every time you torque any bolt...rod, crank, oil pump, etc. Same with the head

will do that everytime from now on!

 

[kyle's protege5]

pulled motor out last night, got it on the stand, took pan and windage tray out.

I started by putting tha rod caps on the right way, i also inspected the crank, no scoring of any kind. That really didnt make all that much of a difference. You can turn it with a 1/2" rachet, and it turns easy when the rod caps are from about 11:00-1:00 and from about 5:00-7:00. At the sides it gets hard. You can still turn it, but considerably harder.

There are 2 marks about 2" apart on both sides of all the rods. We thought maybe it was hitting the block there. From what we could see with a light it was not. I'm going to use a paint pen and mark those spots and turn it to see if it is touching or not. Maybe they are were it is clamped when its line bored.

Also kooldina asked if the pistons were in the right way. How can you tell? looking at them from the bottom, the word arias is on the exhaust side. Is that right? I could not see how it would make a difference. The instructions also do not make any mention of that either.

 

[iracemine]

I still think rings play some part of this. if not that ink pen thing might identify that the rods are contacting the skirts of the pistons and side of block (ever so sightly) this would make sence why there is two marks on each rod. if the rods and skirts are symetrical then why whould it matter what way they went in. sorry I cant be much more help.

 

[kyle's protege5]

I still think rings play some part of this. if not that ink pen thing might identify that the rods are contacting the skirts of the pistons and side of block (ever so sightly) this would make sence why there is two marks on each rod. if the rods and skirts are symetrical then why whould it matter what way they went in. sorry I cant be much more help.

Tonite i'll have the head off and will see the condition of the walls and pistons. I didnt take off the head yet, was trying/hoping that it would just be the caps on backwards. That way i could leave the rest of the motor intact.

 

[igdrasil]

Pistons should go one way only...youe may notice it by the size of the valve relief and in the piston skirt, the clearance for the squirters

 

[iracemine]

Pistons should go one way only...youe may notice it by the size of the valve relief and in the piston skirt, the clearance for the squirters

Those are two completely deferent pistons and two deferent rods. please help dont add to the confusion.

 

[igdrasil]

Those are two completely deferent pistons and two deferent rods. please help dont add to the confusion.

Thats the stock piston and the Arias piston, nothing confusing here. Both shows the oil squirter clearance under the piston. This means, the Arias piston its made to fit on only one position, just like stock pistons.