Zero fuel

Kooldino

MOTM Winner Jan '09
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MP3
I'm having a problem where it feels like the fuel injectors are completely cutting off under certain conditions.

The first time I recall this happening was about 1.5 years ago. At the time, I was running 2 extra injectors, the MPI, and an FM clamp, and my EGR pipe was welded shut.

I've since changed my IM, turbo piping, rebuilt the motor, rewired the MPI, got new secondary injectors/few rail, installed a JoeP FCD, etc etc etc.

If i reset the computer, it will normally occur within 3 miles or so, the first time I drive it.

What it did was this:

The car will be warmed up. I'll be cruising down the road at a light throttle position, usually doing 40+mph.

1-All of a sudden, the power cuts off.

2-The WBO2 shows fully lean (leaner than 20:1...off the charts)

3-The car would continue to have no power for several seconds (NOTE: Although if I go WOT, it will respond as normal, and then return to step 1 moments later).

4-All of a sudden, it would backfire. Sometimes it would cycle between steps 3 and 4 several times, until finally...

5-One of the backfires would stall the car. While still cruising, i would simply turn the key into the "off" position, and back into the "on" position.

6-The car would run fine instantly, but it would immediately throw a CEL, which would complain about insufficient EGR flow.

Once the CEL was on for the EGR flow, the above would never occur again until I reset the ECU again.

However, to avoid this CEL, I've recently hooked up a new EGR pipe, although due to lack of EGR provisions in my exhaust mani, the EGR pipe is just breathing in air from the atmosphere.

While this works great for avoiding the CEL, it does the same thing that I listed above, albeit without actually throwing the CEL. The problem is that it does it about 1/3rd of the time I drive the car.

Input?
 
wow, that's really weird. if you can duplicate it that well, see if you can get an OBDII scanner for a few minutes, and datalog while you duplicate the problem. That'll tell you what's going on with your injectors, etc. that's really weird, sounds like the opposite of what was happening with my megasquirt. I had a bad O2 sensor, and it was reading full lean, and dumping 150% fuel into my system, completely killing everything until full throttle and open loop kicked in. perhaps it's the opposite, but still related to a faulty o2 sensor. if you know someone with one of those narrowband o2 gauges, see if it's workin. or just test it with a voltmeter, and see if it's moving and correcting.
-Mateo
 
yellerandahalf said:
wow, that's really weird. if you can duplicate it that well, see if you can get an OBDII scanner for a few minutes, and datalog while you duplicate the problem. That'll tell you what's going on with your injectors, etc. that's really weird, sounds like the opposite of what was happening with my megasquirt. I had a bad O2 sensor, and it was reading full lean, and dumping 150% fuel into my system, completely killing everything until full throttle and open loop kicked in. perhaps it's the opposite, but still related to a faulty o2 sensor. if you know someone with one of those narrowband o2 gauges, see if it's workin. or just test it with a voltmeter, and see if it's moving and correcting.
-Mateo
He has an OBD scanner/pocketlogger thing.

Have you had someone ride with and log at the same time Dana?

The conditions you are describing, are the conditions EGR activates/works...light cruising periods.

Normally, the EGR sucks exhaust gas out of the mani and tries to "reburn" wasted hydrocarbons to keep emissions down.

Maybe since it is breathing straight atmosphere, it forces it lean (there has to be more available o2 in the air then in spent exhaust gases) causing your overly lean condition. Sound plausible?

Going WOT would shut the EGR off, giving you properly metered air/fuel again, right?

Does the ECU disable the EGR once it thinks it isn't working? I mean, if it throws the code, and the computer is like "oh s***, that doesn't work"...does it try to use it again, or disable it? Once the ECU is reset, it wouldn't remember that, and tries again...

Can't you just put a block-off plate over where the EGR valve attaches and call it a day? Weight redux even, .5 lbs! Or have the EGR provisions added to this mani?

Not sure how much of this is rambling, but it made sense as i was typing...
 
BradC said:
Have you had someone ride with and log at the same time Dana?

Not yet. I guess I'd wanna log my primary O2 sensor.

The conditions you are describing, are the conditions EGR activates/works...light cruising periods.

Yup

Maybe since it is breathing straight atmosphere, it forces it lean (there has to be more available o2 in the air then in spent exhaust gases) causing your overly lean condition. Sound plausible?

Not really. I only say this because when the EGR was welded shut, it would get ZERO extra air, and do the exact same thing. Only it would throw a CEL over it. Plus, whatever it does pull in via the EGR shouldn't be enough to make it go off the charts lean. I could see 17:1 or so.

Going WOT would shut the EGR off, giving you properly metered air/fuel again, right?

Yeah, that's what I'm figuring.

Does the ECU disable the EGR once it thinks it isn't working? I mean, if it throws the code, and the computer is like "oh s***, that doesn't work"...does it try to use it again, or disable it? Once the ECU is reset, it wouldn't remember that, and tries again...

That's pretty much my theory.

Can't you just put a block-off plate over where the EGR valve attaches and call it a day?

Yeah, but then I'll get the CEL for insufficient EGR flow.

Or have the EGR provisions added to this mani?

That's a lot of work.
 
Kooldino said:
Not yet. I guess I'd wanna log my primary O2 sensor.
Can you log something vs. something? Like o2 vs. the signal that would tell the EGR valve to open?

Kooldino said:
Not really. I only say this because when the EGR was welded shut, it would get ZERO extra air, and do the exact same thing. Only it would throw a CEL over it. Plus, whatever it does pull in via the EGR shouldn't be enough to make it go off the charts lean. I could see 17:1 or so.
I remember you saying that, kind of what I was thinking too. Did the car do the no power s*** when the EGR was welded up?

Kooldino said:
Yeah, but then I'll get the CEL for insufficient EGR flow.
Does it meter the EGR flow, or just see if it is "on/off"? I know with a Neon, it just looks at the signal and change if resistance of the solenoid. If you took the EGR off, you could plug a high wattage resistor in the solenoid and trick the system.

Kooldino said:
That's a lot of work.
Thats a shitload of work, but it will solve this surefire, no?
 
BradC said:
Can you log something vs. something? Like o2 vs. the signal that would tell the EGR valve to open?

Sure.

I remember you saying that, kind of what I was thinking too. Did the car do the no power s*** when the EGR was welded up?

Yup.

Does it meter the EGR flow, or just see if it is "on/off"? I know with a Neon, it just looks at the signal and change if resistance of the solenoid. If you took the EGR off, you could plug a high wattage resistor in the solenoid and trick the system.

Not sure about this.

Thats a shitload of work, but it will solve this surefire, no?

Probably?
 
Kooldino said:
I think it would make sense to watch the EGR and o2 together, to see what the correlation between them is. Is it the second the EGR kicks on, does it run for 15sec, etc.


Kooldino said:
Well thats odd. Then the car would have recieved no extra o2 and showed the same symptoms. You are still running extra injectors, right? They only come on when in boost though, or at WOT, correct? Are your part-throttle maps tuned as well? Maybe bring up pulse-width on the MPI while logging EGR on the Treo. Does the EGR turning on signal the injectors to fire less fuel somehow, or does that change from open/closed loop throwing off your tune? That is just talking out of my ass, but there has to be something that when the EGR kicks on it changes in the ECU, throwing off whatever was previously balanced, no?



Kooldino said:
Not sure about this.
Bueller, Bueller...c'mon and chime in, someone knows this! BlkZoomZoom maybe, you're a tech...


Kooldino said:
Probably?
Awful lot of work for a probably!
 
BradC said:
Well thats odd. Then the car would have recieved no extra o2 and showed the same symptoms. You are still running extra injectors, right? They only come on when in boost though, or at WOT, correct? Are your part-throttle maps tuned as well?

Yes to all of the above.

Maybe bring up pulse-width on the MPI while logging EGR on the Treo.

The Treo program doesn't have EGR.

Does the EGR turning on signal the injectors to fire less fuel somehow,

Hmm, this is quite possible. Best theory i've heard yet.

That is just talking out of my ass, but there has to be something that when the EGR kicks on it changes in the ECU, throwing off whatever was previously balanced, no?

Very well could be.


Awful lot of work for a probably!

Exactly why I haven't done it yet.


What I'm currently trying is this (Read this a few times, as it's somewhat confusing. Please study the attached image before reading the following):

So far it hasn't freaked out YET (but it probably will). It hasn't thrown an EGR CEL yet, BUT there is a code pending. Reason being, the two ports in the intake mani that connect to the PCV valve are also now connected to the EGR.

So, if the EGR opens, it's playing "tug of war" for the air with the aformentioned two ports on the intake mani. To remedy this, I was thinking of possibly putting in a check valve so that it has a better chance of drawing in air, and air can't be drawn directly from the open EGR valve.
 

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Update: My latest attempt threw a CEL, but didn't go through the spaz out phase. Maybe I'll try a check valve.
 
Couldn't find a check valve big enough to fit into the hose that I used. Well, big enough on BOTH sides, anyway.

It seems like all check valves have a "big" side and a "small" side. I guess that's part of how it works.
 
Friday night I pulled out my EGT probe, put in a barbed adapter, and tried hooking up some exhaust hose to the EGR tube. I still got a CEL. :(
 
This actually sounds a lot like a problem that I am having.

I will hit the gas the car just spudders and then goes dead. I have no idea why it happens but it really sounds like I'm having the same problem.

HAve you replaced your fuel pump yet? I'm still using my stock fuel pump with a vortec FMU and I'm thinking because I've been running a higher fuel pressure on the stock pump for so long that it can no longer handel it anymore.

I have some gauges on the way to try and butter understand what is going out when this problem happens. 4 injector duty cycle guages egt and electric fuel pressure guage. I'm hoping that they will help me understand what is going on.

I also plan on ordering the LC-1 as a replacement for the stock primary O2 and use either the logworks program or the E-01 to data log the information

Also by reading and watching some of their informative videos on the inovvate website he mentioned that when I car misfires it will show up on the sensor as extremely lean just like you are experiencing even though there could be huge amounts of unburned fuel in the air charge.

If this is the case I have no idea why we would hit some kind of spark cut

I do remember read some where a while back about the tension spring on the timing belt not being enough for some turboed cars so I am going to check the timing belt this weekend and make sure that it is still aligned properly. I am also going to change the spark plugs incase one of them is fouled. the coil packs are brand new so I know its not the coils.

Besides the fuel and ingnition system, and the timing belt I really can't think of anything else to check. I can't come up with any reason why this is happening.
 
You guys have interesting ideas.
Just curious why you would log the O2 and the Egr at the same time if you have alreay determined using a w/b that it goes super lean? Do you have your injectors installed in the correct place (2 green 2 purple)?
 
BlkZoomZoom said:
You guys have interesting ideas.
Just curious why you would log the O2 and the Egr at the same time if you have alreay determined using a w/b that it goes super lean?
To make sure it goes super lean when the EGR functions?
 
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